"he Law is a “transcript of His own character" {COL 315}

"thou shalt not kill" (Exo_20:13, KJV).

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself" {COL 84}. "God destroys no one" {8T 120}.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan" {GC 36}

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord’s restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest" {6T 388, 389}

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it" {7T 141}

"In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God … will say to the angels, “No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work" {RH, September 17, 1901}

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village” (Luk_9:55-56)

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas" {DA 487}

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power" {DA 759}

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority" {DA 22}

We know that God does nothing that is contrary to the principles of His government. Therefore, He does not use force. This principle is stated with certainty in The "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer" {MH 113}

IT IS CLEAR - God is not an executioneer, punisher, or destroyer. So when you read statements that seem contrary, we must dig deeper, in faith is our LOVER Father, to find harmony of all scripture. "God Destroys no man", is so clear, but this statement has no effect on those that want to see God as THE destroyer. They say, God HAS to use FORCE. They read God slew Saul, and accept that God personally killed Saul, that God is an executioner, that God had to use force. We know that Saul committed suicide, from the Bible and EGW. We need to use Bible definitions, not dictionary definitions of the meaning of "therefore He slew him". "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa_55:8-9). We need to interpret keywords, such as "destroy", "wrath", judgement", "punish", etc. from the Bible view, not the human view.

The Bible says, "God destroys", I accept that. But God's ways are not my ways. God's way of destroying is altother different from human ways, there is no similarity. The Bible needs to be its own expositor, it own dictionary. We need to leave preconcieved ideas and opinions.

The outstanding example of this is found in the experience of Christ's apostles. They were born into a Jewish world wherein the prevailing expectation for the coming of the Messiah was the advent of an all-conquering king. As those boys grew, they heard this conversation around them. It was preached to them in church and taught to them in school. The result was the building up of strong, preconceived notions of Christ's work and ministry. When the real Savior appeared, those ideas formed a fearful barrier that for a long time made it impossible for Christ to bring to them the truth regarding His ministry and mission. Only when He was finally able to sweep away those preconceived ideas could He teach them the truth.

So it is with us today. Every one of us should humbly recognize that we do not possess accurate wisdom, knowledge, concepts, and ideas and that these erroneous thought patterns are indeed a great problem.

"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {1SM 20.1} The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {1SM 20.3}

The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {1SM 20.4}

"The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. They can be understood only by those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it" {COL 112}

Jesus plainly said, “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Joh_8:32)

"Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God’s Word" {COL 112}

The whole world lies in ignorance as to who God really is, and those of us who have lived in this world have been unconsciously influenced by this atmosphere. There is no subject, then, in which the need to lay aside preconceived ideas and opinions is more critical than this one.

Rev_20:10 KJV "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The dictionary defintion of "for ever" says the wicked are tortured for ever in hell. But what is the Bible definition? Oba_1:16 KJV "For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Mal_4:1 KJV "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

It is obviously impossible for the wicked to be as though they had not been and to be burned up, leaving neither root nor branch, and yet, at the same time, eternally exist. The only safety lies in discarding dictionary definitions of words wherever those words are a problem and seeking a revised understanding of the meaning of the statements. The only way to discover an alternative meaning is by making the Bible, and the Bible only, its own dictionary, and therefore, its own interpreter. When we turn to the Old Testament we discover that “everlasting” and “for ever” sometimes signify a very limited time.

The Passover was kept "for ever", Exo_12:24, but it ended (Heb_9:24-26) Arron and his sons were to offer incense "for ever", 1Ch_23:13, and have an everlasting priesthood, Exo_40:15, but it ended, Heb_7:11-14. And others, Jon_2:6 vs Jon_1:17. It is clear that "for ever" by the dictionary, is not the same as by the Bible which is a limited time.

God destroys, but how? We need to Bible defintion, not the dictionary defintion. We KNOW from EGW, that God destroys no man. We KNOW that Saul committed suicide. We KNOW that God does not use force! Ponder Sodom and Gomorrah. "Christ came to the world to sow it with truth. He held the keys to all the treasures of wisdom, and was able to open doors to science, and to reveal undiscovered stores of knowledge, were it essential to salvation" {FE 177} God's ways are not our ways.

The Bible terminology is consisttently used when describing God's action in destruction of people and ciies. Not always does the Bible explain the meaning of these words, but there are several (Mat_18:16) references that tells us how, and that is sufficient. It is not important what we THINK the Lord meant when He uses certain expressions, our job is to KNOW FOR SURE what the Lord meant. Saul is a perfect example. We KNOW that God did not raise His hand to slay Saul, Saul killed himself. "He killed him" is not the works we would use to describe this event. This was Saul separating himself from God, and that is what ultimately killed him. In order to truthfully understand God’s thought as expressed in His word, the mind must be re-educated to think this way when reading about God’s ways as distinct from our ways.

The presentation of one witness is never sufficient to establish the truth of the Bible. A second must be added.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (Mat_23:37-39).

For the same reasons, and in harmony with the same principles, God left Israel exactly as He had left Saul. Thus was removed from them the only effective defense from their many enemies.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet, “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” Hos_13:9; Hos_14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan’s vindictive power over those who yield to his control.…

But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint [placed upon Satan] is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.… The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all [regarding] … the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty {GC 35, 36}

Of particular value is the reference made to the common interpretation of what was done there. "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." In other words, this is the way in which most people view God’s actions in this incident.

In the death of Saul and the destruction of the nation in AD 70, God consistently followed the same course. In both cases He worked with infinite love and patience to win them to the ways of righteousness and safety, but they utterly rejected it, forcing Him to withdraw and leave them to the fate that lay nearest. For Saul, it was the invasion of the Philistines, for Jerusalem, the Roman onslaught.

God described what He did to Saul in words very different from the ones we would use to describe what He did. God said, "I destroyed him." We would say, "Saul destroyed himself."

The third witness is the fiery serpents. We KNOW that God did not send the serpents, yet the Bible say He did.

And there is the story of Job...

Again, Green, it's hard to communicate with you.

You're not even beginning to hear what I'm saying.


You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?

It is difficult to disagree with you on these points!

Which death was deserved? Which one represented justice, and which was merely malicious?

Do you not see a difference?

I used the example of Uriah to illustrate the fact that the sword can be used by someone who is not responsible for the death. The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David, and it was "murder." David himself, as you well know, was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death. David didn't "kill" Uriah. But David "murdered" him.

Do you see the difference?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Please see my recent post in the "second death" thread that relates to God's wrath.

SIMPLY CLICK HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Would you be saying here the distinction of killing or murder is determined whether the one killed deserved death or not?

No. You compared what you said God did to what David did.

The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David.
You say the responsibility for Saul's death fell squarely upon God.

David was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death.
God was nowhere near the scene of Saul's death.

David didn't kill Uriah. But David "murdered" him.
Therefore, according to you, God "murdered" Saul.

How can you possibly see a difference?

kland,

The distinction between murder or killing has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved. It has more to do with something else that you will discover better for yourself by researching the matter from the Bible. However, whether or not the death is deserved has to do with whether or not it was "just." Justice sometimes involves the death penalty. When we understand that, then we understand how God might use the death penalty in strict justice.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - reread the OP.

APL,

Perhaps you, Johann and kland might like to reread THIS POST which was but a few posts past the OP and which I don't remember having been answered.

APL, your universalizing worldview makes some serious assumptions which are both flawed and which fail to use proper logic. Your assumptions are in error. One of those assumptions is that if the devil does something, God could not or would not do it. This is flawed.

It is true that the devil does a great many things that God also might do. When it suits his purpose, Satan can call Jesus the "Son of God." When it suits his purpose, Satan can quote scripture. Just because Satan may do these things does not mean that God would not do them. It does not mean that it is necessarily "evil" to do those things.

The problem with your view is not so much the view itself as it is the attitude represented by your view and which changes your position into a half truth.

Just because the Bible says things like "evil will slay the wicked" does not mean that God cannot or would not do likewise. It does not mean that this is the ONLY manner in which a wicked person can meet his or her demise. It simply tells us a fact, that evil will cause the death of a wicked person. The text does NOT say "all the wicked will only ever be slain by evil." APL, you read into the text what is not there.

The Bible verses you quote are true. They are righteous. But you are not dividing them rightly. You add your own thoughts to them, and soon are presented with other verses which your view simply cannot answer. Instead, then, of adjusting your views, you attack the one who presents those unanswerable points. You malign his or her motives. You would make it appear that by quoting those verses of the Bible the individual is focused upon the "evil" which you perceive to be presented in them--as if your entire focus here were somehow better. But is it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Perhaps you have also forgotten that these stories are of a people that have rejected God. Were the Israelites ever suppose to fight? Never! The first attack on Ai was a rejection of divine guidance. Was Israel ever to have a king besides God? Never! The asking for a king was a rejection of God. The history of Israel is of rejection of God with a few notable exceptions, such as the exodus, Jacob before Esau. The people were NEVER suppose to fight. But the children of Israel did fight, and under God's direction, but this in no way proves that is was God's purpose that they should fight. The people's minds were blinded by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation! And note, that after all their fighting, Israel did not gain their promised inheritance.