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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #156042
09/12/13 03:42 PM
09/12/13 03:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
For example, they say...

Quote:
However, God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy (see DA-22; DA-466; DA-759).


They are wrong, as I see it. God loves them whether they want Him to love them or not.

I understand the statement to mean that God does not force His creatures to receive His love, that is, to accept it and reciprocate it.

Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #156043
09/12/13 03:46 PM
09/12/13 03:46 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I bring up the SDABC because it shows that what I am saying is not unique to me.

So it's only natural that you would quote from the section of the SDABC which was written by Maxwell... smile

Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rosangela] #156044
09/12/13 03:56 PM
09/12/13 03:56 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I bring up the SDABC because it shows that what I am saying is not unique to me.

So it's only natural that you would quote from the section of the SDABC which was written by Maxwell... smile
I bring up a quote that was relevant to the discussion. Do you disagree with the quote as green does? I'll bet you actually agree with the quotation, while green does not.

Oh - do you have a list of who wrote what in the SDABC? Also, if someone is the primary author, did it undergo any editorial changes? If there were changes, were they documented?

It is best to see what is said, and see if what was said can be corroborated by scripture or EGW. In this case, it could! Green just can't see it.

Last edited by APL; 09/12/13 03:58 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #156045
09/12/13 08:22 PM
09/12/13 08:22 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
The SDA Bible Commentary was published while I was studying for the ministry, and finished some time after that. The procedure was explained to us, and I do not think the views of a single contributor found its way to the final edition of the commentary without it being edited to reflect either a majority opinion or else more than one view is expressed as a possibility.

That is one reason I find it strange that a person can find him/herself comfortable in our church while being critical of the general tenor of this commentary. But then at least we are aware of what kind of character we are dealing with.

And why should you be translating this commentary into your own language, Rosangela, if the commentary is not deemed helpful to our people whose native language is Portuguese?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Johann] #156046
09/12/13 08:34 PM
09/12/13 08:34 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Several of the writers of the commentary were my teachers and others were fellow students who were doing graduate studies in the area where they were writing, or honing their knowledge of the Biblical languages to help them understand the text correctly.

It was great rubbing shoulders with these people of experience in a spiritual atmosphere.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #156064
09/13/13 08:26 AM
09/13/13 08:26 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
You misquote Mrs. White. There is never any statement in her writings that says "God does not force His love upon...." You won't find such a thing. The commentary is incorrect on this point, and you are too if you believe it.

I searched the EGW CD for ["God forc* love" /12] and came up with just one statement in which those three words occur within 12 words of each other anywhere in her writings. (Note that the asterisk allows all forms of "force, such as: forced, forcing, forces, etc.) Here is the statement.
Green - you black and white view is showing again. The commentary makes a statement, and you want that statement to be a direct quotation. The comment was backed up by several references. The comment: " However, God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy". Green says this is untrue! Let's see the first quote listed for this statement above.
Originally Posted By: EGW
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

Well it sure sounds like God does not use force to get His way.
Originally Posted By: EGW
In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. {DA 466.4}
Are you keeping score?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
I would say, the score for green's view in these THREE EGW quotations, is 0. And there are more.


God does use force to give people a chance to change from their path of evil, we see it time and time again. Here we see it with Pharaoh...
Exodus 11
King James Version (KJV)

4 And Moses said, Thus saith the Lord, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

Exodus 12
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

Now how about the example of Balaam and the Angel of the Lord, what was going to happen...
Numbers 22 (King James Version)
21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.24 But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.25 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.26 And the angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.27 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

Scripture is very clear what the donkey saved Balaam from...

32 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

Last edited by Rick H; 09/13/13 08:27 AM.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rick H] #156069
09/13/13 12:29 PM
09/13/13 12:29 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
God does use force to give people a chance to change from their path of evil, we see it time and time again. Here we see it with Pharaoh...
Rick, read ALL the scripture that describes this event of the Exodus, and what picture emerges? Read Pslams 78, remembering from Romans 1 that God's wrath is His giving up, letting go, handing over. And you read of the destruction, remember this (quoting as it is printed, I added nothing):

Psalms 78:49
He sent against them his fierce anger,
    rage and indignation and trouble,
    a band of destroying [Literally “evil”] angels.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #156072
09/13/13 12:51 PM
09/13/13 12:51 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
What makes some people so uncomfortable when they hear of the love of God?

Last edited by Johann; 09/13/13 12:52 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Johann] #156086
09/13/13 08:31 PM
09/13/13 08:31 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Quote:
Not Like Earthly Governments—The government of the kingdom of Christ is like no earthly government. It is a representation of the characters of those who compose the kingdom. “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God?” Christ asked, “or with what comparison shall we compare it?” He could find nothing on earth that would serve as a perfect comparison. His court is one where holy love presides, and whose offices and appointments are graced by the exercise of charity. He charges His servants to bring pity and loving-kindness, His own attributes, into all their office work, and to find their happiness and satisfaction in reflecting the love and tender compassion of the divine nature on all with whom they associate (The Review and Herald, March 19, 1908). {5BC 1111.9}


The human mind does not discern the kingdom of love, or does it?

Last edited by Johann; 09/13/13 08:32 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Johann] #156107
09/14/13 04:48 PM
09/14/13 04:48 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The SDA Bible Commentary was published while I was studying for the ministry, and finished some time after that. The procedure was explained to us, and I do not think the views of a single contributor found its way to the final edition of the commentary without it being edited to reflect either a majority opinion or else more than one view is expressed as a possibility.

That is one reason I find it strange that a person can find him/herself comfortable in our church while being critical of the general tenor of this commentary. But then at least we are aware of what kind of character we are dealing with.

And why should you be translating this commentary into your own language, Rosangela, if the commentary is not deemed helpful to our people whose native language is Portuguese?

Pastor Johann, just to clarify: my remark to APL was intended to be a humorous remark. Yes, the comments of the individual contributors were edited to reflect the opinion of the majority, and what I was told was that Maxwell didn't like the changes that were made to his original text. No, I'm not critical of the general tenor of this commentary, and I've never said I was, although there may be a few occasional remarks I'm not in agreement with. This is not the case, however, with the section APL quoted. And no, I've never said the commentary wouldn't be helpful to our people whose native language is Portuguese - I said just the opposite. I think you are confusing my remarks with someone else's. My mother is experiencing health problems and this forces me to limit my participation in the forum at this moment.

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