Something is terribly wrong with your reasoning James which you have shown up to now that you
#1. rejects & ignore scriptures that doesn't agree with your vomit you cherish,
#2. twist those you can, and
#3. add to scripture what is not there.

All of this to protect some vomit(teachings of men)???

Let's bring v.13 that brings in the context of the passage you quoted above.

AV Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, [other]lords['ab, father] beside thee have had dominion over us: [but] by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Now it is the other 'lords'['ab, father] this following text that you quoted is addressed to and not the inhabitants of the world that Is 26:9 says clearly. So your argument is already defeated. But let's go a little further. This word 'lord'=father is compared with the Lord--Yahweh. This text may be referring to other gods, or kingdoms run by pagan kings that the Lord had sold them to described in the book of Judges.

Now let's look at your text more closely.

"They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish. (Isaiah 26:14)

Now remember that the Lord said to Moses that He speaks to prophets in dark speeches -- in riddles -- that they are symbolic form of speech that needs to be solved. This applies to this text for Isaiah is a prophet. I am not going to get into this, but will only bring to your attention the underline.

Let's ignore that word the Lord told us that these are riddles to be solved for a second and enter in your literal application and usage of this text you have used as proof. Well look at the enderlined portion "they will not rise". Oh??? Don't you believe they will ressurect at the second ressurection? Don't you believe they will be alive then??? Your reasoning is shown to be terribly wrong once again!!!

Once again, your argument doesn't hold water. Read it again, and this time please put your idols aside at the door(Ez 14). We all have idols of the heart including me, but it is very important to recognize them or those that are potentially be idols and be willing to put everything at the door before reading scriptures. If not, then the Lord said He has worded things in such a way that our idols will distort His word and be a stumblingbock for us.

Green I haven't ignored your post, but wanted to finish replying to Asygo and others about the 2nd death & Jubilee point first before jumping into something else by which your second question brought us into.

Eternal{aionian, an age-abiding] damanation(krisis, a tribunal) is not eternal death. First the definition of aionian is well accepted by theologians as meaning an age-abiding or undefined period of time. So the Judgment Age(Era) would be a better translation for “aionian krisis” which is the judgment at the Great white throne by which all the people will be thrown in the lake of fire which symbolize the execution of the verdict to restitute(pay) for their sins(see post #155911) until the Jubilee comes(see Post#155902. This is the type of judgment that is described in the law and also in history. We all believe that the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; thus there’s no reason why we would accept any other interpretation.
In the OT the word forever is Olam having the similar definition as Aionian.

Concerning the scriptures talking about the name blotted out is from being part of the nation of royal priesthood. The Lord is not going to have anyone ruling with Him who doesn’t know His laws or are in disagreement with them just as you show yourself to be. If you do not come in agreement with the Lord’s ways described in His laws, then your name will be blotted out mainly because you are not fit to be one of His royal priesthood men(or women) that constitute His body and will reign with Christ over the nations by teaching & bringing judgment according to His laws. You are not fit, because you don’t know His ways nor His laws, so how on earth can you rule with Him? However this doesn’t mean you won’t have any part to play in His plan as you might end up being one of the Levites that serves the priesthood. And when you will be in His Firery Fire it will purify you for the Lord said it will.
Looking up the Hebrew words brings a different perspective than this English translation. This is not saying these people are eternally dead. This talks of the first death as everyone dies the 1st death and yes…. The Lord will bruise or violently strike us and for most of us … to our death. This we see all the time and it is His ways to humble us and purifying us. But we all know that after the first death, there is a resurrection and a judgment.

Same comments as the two above.

Same comments as the above.

Same comment as above, but I would add that the word used to describe the destruction man here brings a good perspective. The old man of sin which is all of us have in our Adamic heritage, wants to rule with our own laws instead of the Lord’s. This is rooted in all wicked unbelievers or rebellious believers, both are antichrists like John talks about. The proper definition of antichrists is someone that rule in the place of the Lord. We are called to rule with Christ and with His Laws and not without Him and with ours own Laws of our own makings. So the definition of Shamad brings in that the purpose to destroy us is to overthrow us from being little gods and antichrists. It is not our laws or ways that will last, maybe it will for a time during(‘ad) but it is the Lord’s ways(laws) that will be establish on earth forever.

Well, this takes place at His 2nd coming which is also described in Rev 19 stricking the nations with His tongue and He shall rule over them with an iron rod. So we have two pictures talking about the same event. Both are in harmony but describing the same event giving different information that complements one and another. One says His second coming is a flaming fire, the other says He is on a white horse with His tongue striking the people. Deut 33:2 says His laws are a fiery fire, and we know that Jesus is the word of God that spoke gave the laws to Moses and any of additional words He speaks becomes laws. So the literal interpretation that His second coming will burn everyone around is once again only vomit(teachings of men) for if that occurs then how can He rule the nations with an rod of iron afterwards if they are all burned?

Then the part about “everlasting destruction” this is describing the judgment at the Great White throne where the people will “tino” will pay the price for their sins(see post #155911)and the baptism of fire will burn(destoy the carnal flesh).

Paul describe this refinery process in 1Cor 3:10-15, how a man who didn’t build with the foundational material layed by Christ, whatever material(wood, hay, stubble) not from Christ foundation, will burn yet “himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”

None of it talk about eternal death. Read again Green but this time put your idols at the door(Ez 14) and take every word that proceeded from the mouth of God and not by some that seems to say what you want it to say.

The eternal death concept is not biblical and you have not given me any proof of it.

And you're mistaken...the Lord did give a second opportunity in His Laws which is call the Second Passover(Num 9).

Second Passover = Second Opportunity
Number 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: 7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel? 8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you. 9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD. 11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Passover represents justification and this law shows the express mind of the Lord built into the divine plan by giving a second opportunity for those who missed observing the first Passover. It is not a second chance, but a second opportunity for their’s no chances with the Lord. This is in His plan to give a second opportunity for those who didn’t have the opportunity to hear about Jesus or heard a severe appalling misrepresentation of Him from His immature faithless lawless asleep servants. Verse 10 list the two reasons why a person would qualify to receive the second opportunity to observe the second Passover(=be justified).

#1 by reason of a dead body : We all have inherited the mortal body of Adam and touch it every day. Those that died the second death, the old man was killed and resurrected as a new creature in Christ. However the unbelievers are still in contact with the mortal body making them unclean to keep the Passover. (Num 19:11)

#2 or be on a journey afar off: Many through their life on earth where on a journey far away from the Lord that inhibited them to keep the first Passover. Whatever the reason may be, the Lord has provided them a second opportunity to be justified.

These two reasons in this law will cover all the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection and give them an opportunity to be justify by the blood of the lamb. However they will still need to go through the wilderness experience (baptism of fire = sanctification) like all of us did before entering into the promised land to receive their inheritance.

Elle,

That's a fascinating case regarding the second passover. I must admit that I had never noticed that one before. But let's look at this for a minute, for it does not teach a second chance as you might suppose.

Why could they not offer sacrifices the first time, at the first passover? It was because of God's law. The law forbad them to do so during the period of their uncleanness. This is why it was fitting that God should make an alternative for them to be able to still offer their passover sacrifice.

But come, Elle, is there any law of God which says "some people cannot be saved"? No, there is no such law. God says He will freely accept all who come to Him, and will in no wise cast them out.



God wants everyone to be saved. He has not made any law that prevents anyone from coming to Him.

Only our own choice and willful rebellion prevent our salvation. Why should there be a second chance to make your choice? In a way, such a concept would nullify the validity of your first choice. It would be like God saying--I won't give you power of choice the first time around if I didn't like your choice...you'll be forced to choose again.

What do you think?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

enuf sed.

I agree.

1. The "second opportunity" to keep the Passover is NOT a second Passover. Jesus died ONCE, ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME as the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. There is no other sacrifice to be made. The "second apportunity" is an indication that even those far away or cut off because of unfortunate circumstances, are still partakers of the gift of salvation AT THE SAME TIME with those who are near. Jesus illustrated this principle in the parable of the workers of the vineyard, when those who worked all day and those who were called late both received the SAME REWARD AT THE SAME TIME.

2. You failed to mention the warning that God gave Moses and Aaron, that those who treated the Passover callously, disregarding the service, were to be cut off from among the people (Num. 9:13). Do you know what it means to be CUT OFF FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE? It means "eternal death", as it is written, "So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest." (Heb. 3:11) They die. They never eat of the Tree of Life.
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Nice try James. Your logic fails again. Yes Jesus died ONCE...but tell me how did you get justified when He died 2000 years ago??? And what about Adam and all those before His death??? It is a second opportunity to keep the passover feast, it doesn't mean that Jesus has to die every time the passover feast is kept??? If your reason have any validity, then why didn't Jesus died twice for both passover stated in the Law? Your reasoning doesn't work James!


As defined by the Law, there are 3 groups-Harvests. The firstfruit-Barley-group, the Believers-Wheat-group, and the Unbelievers-grape-Group. The firstfruit group partake of their reward at the first ressurection and not with the other two groups. The Believers and unbelievers partake of their reward at the general ressurection after the millenium. Well we can't termed as a reward after the millenium. It is a judgment which produces two different type of harvest. But as far as I understand their reward of the immortal body is only received at the Great Jubilee.

But your point that the firstfruit and the other groups will receive their reward at the same time, is not true. For the Believers and the Unbelievers Yes, but not for the Firstfruit and the other 2 groups. Jesus says so very clearly in here :

AV Lk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?43 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Notice in verse 49 & 50 that Jesus is referencing His coming judgment with the fire He's going to send on earth which is related as a baptism.

You showed yourself once more only seeing the letter of the Law and not understanding the mind and intend of Jesus behind the Law. The word of Jesus I quoted above just happen to explain what He meant with the cutting off in verse 46. It is a cut off from not making it to be part of the firstfruit = Kingdom of Priest -- Holy Nation(Ex 19:6; 1Pet 2:9).

Elle, if there is no freewill, why is there a need for a "second opportunity"?

And if there is no freewill, why are you objecting to Daryl and James trying to get you to see your errors. If Daryl had no freewill, then it is directly from God and you are speaking against God.

(And it is not to be construed that if there is freewill, that you are not speaking against God)

The most well known Bible verse in the Bible came to my mind in relation to this topic.

Two key thoughts are presented here:

1 - perish,
2 - everlasting life.

In other words, those who believe in Him will not perish, but will have everlasting life tells me, however, those who do not believe in Him will perish and will not have everlasting life.

Those two thoughts, perish or everlasting are both consequences of not believing or believing in Him.

Perish = 2nd death from which there is no further resurrection.

Everlasting life = No 2nd death.

Yes….that’s the point. Notice the Lord added and additional condition for those that are “on a journey afar off”. This was not something requested.

You’re reading it wrong, it says “it will have all men to be saved.” You make man Sovereign over the Lord. All in the Bible…the Lord says I will show you “that I am the Lord God”….over 200 texts…. His Sovereignty is what He is going to show us. Man in not sovereign over the Lord. Never was, never will be. The Lord always had control over everything that happened, even with sin around, and all things went, is going, and will be going according to His plans….it never went according to man’s plan. You preach doctrines of men that wants to uplift man sovereignty over the Lord.
There’s no such things in the Bible. All over, we see our rebellion brings us correction and judgment. You just don’t understand the Lord’s judgments because you do not study His laws where it is detailed and show His mind and ways. The Lord knows how to correct His children and the nations. He knows how to break(“destroy” see Greek word “apolumi” destroy, lost) them, so He can restore them after.
They never had a choice on the first time around. If the Lord didn’t open their ears or didn’t helkuo(Greek for drag) them in the first place, they never had the opportunity. That’s why they were still in the Adamic covering – death and couldn't observe the first passover. If they would have been justified like the believers, they wouldn’t of been covered in death. The Lord planned to give them a second opportunity according to His laws, because He knows how to work all things together.

The reason why it makes no sense to you is because you made man sovereign – making man’s will over the Lord will. The Bible is clear, even Satan’s will is not above the Lord’s. You don’t understand Rom 9 – 11 and you don’t understand what the Bible means when it says Man needs to be born again….and that the carnal man cannot understand spiritual things, that is not drawn to the Lord, and think all of this is foolishness.

By the measure you have judge them, the Lord will judge you. The purpose the unbelievers are there, it is to show you how blind and stiff neck you have become despite having scriptures in your hand.

Why are you arguing with the word of the Lord???? If the Lord has said that He will give everyone a second opportunity, then the Lord said it and we must accept His word. If the Lord provided for them to work off their debt according to the Law of Jubilee; then again, it is the Lords Law and since He said so, then we need to accept His word and adjust our thinking.

The Lord is not going to adjust His Law because Green Cochoa doesn’t agree with it and he thinks that 95% of the population deserve to be literally burn and be totally anhiliated. This is contrary to the mind of the Lord and ways for in His laws He forbade that anyone should pass their children in the fire and He said that this type of stuff never crossed His mind. And you ignore these words also, and you make the Lord a liar and a breaker of His laws … for the sake of an old teaching of men that stem from the Pagans practice? This shows how little you have tested all doctrines to the Bible.

Daryl, you just added to scriptures. That text does not say what you said and all human logic is not going to say what it doesn't say. There's strong warnings against adding to scriptures.

There's no eternal death in the Bible.

Jesus said death is a sleep because He conquered death by being the 2nd Adam and made all man alive. 1C 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.