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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156198
09/16/13 05:43 AM
09/16/13 05:43 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
According to the laws of the nature God has created there is no life without a connection with the Life Giver.

This is so because God set things up this way. If He wanted to, almighty God is able to perpetuate the sinner's life forever, right?

And just to be clear, it is God who made it this way, not Satan, right?


Are you trying to give God the responsibility?

I'm not "trying" to do anything. I just want the truth. Is God responsible for the law of nature that there is no life apart from the Life Giver? Or is someone else responsible for making things work that way?

Are we still in agreement that God is almighty? That if He wanted to keep someone alive indefinitely, including Satan, He has the power to do it?

Last edited by asygo; 09/16/13 05:48 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156199
09/16/13 05:47 AM
09/16/13 05:47 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Who is fighting against what God has created? God Himself?

Who created the law of nature that separation from the Life Giver results in lack of life? Does God work with or against that law? Does Satan want to abide by that law or does he want to defy it?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #156203
09/16/13 09:23 AM
09/16/13 09:23 AM
Johann  Offline
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Iceland
Arnold, there are questions connected with the nature of God which require an almighty insight to answer. Are some of your questions approaching this old adage:

If God is almighty could He create a stone which is so heavy that He cannot lift it Himself?

Scripture teaches us that what is revealed about the nature of God is good for us to examine, but what isn´t is none of our business. I have expressed this in my own words, but you understand the meaning.

So let us see what has been revealed - in the next post.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156206
09/16/13 10:04 AM
09/16/13 10:04 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann

A current can be cut off at either end; by the provider or by the receiver. Scripture makes it clear that the current of life is cut off by the receiver - and here we are clearly speaking of life eternal which is the only life that really matters according to the Gospel.

According to the laws of the nature God has created there is no life without a connection with the Life Giver.

Satan wants you to think that eternal death is a punishment and he makes God an angry revenger.

Eternity will never happen until the whole universe understands that God is not an avenger but that the sinner has separated himself from life and therefore would be unhappy to live in the kingdom of Heaven.


But aren't there many texts in Scripture which describe God as an avenger? Yes, there are.

How do you explain these text?

Personally I believe there is no better commentary or dictionary than what is given by the Son of God and His disciples.

Quote:
Matthew 5:43-48.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Here in the sermon on the mount Jesus is telling us that if we want to approach being perfect like our Heavenly Father then we must read the inspired words of Scripture in the light of the Gospel. That does not mean that we can infuse our own meaning, but it must be in accordance with the message of Jesus Christ and His apostles.

If not, we are not on the way to perfection and must seek repentance, like you have said in your sermon, Arnold.

More later. . .


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156207
09/16/13 12:45 PM
09/16/13 12:45 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
If He wanted to, almighty God is able to perpetuate the sinner's life forever, right?
Question - would keeping a sinner a life forever be a violation of God's law?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156209
09/16/13 01:32 PM
09/16/13 01:32 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
If so, then He could have prevented Christ's death if He wanted to. But Jesus definitely died. So that means that God did not want to prevent Christ's death.
Originally Posted By: EGW
The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}
Could God have prevented Christ's death? Yes, BUT - what would be the implications for sinners? They would have been lost. Satan's claims would have been sustained, the questions in the great controversy would have been true. Christ demonstrated that sin causes death. Saving Jesus from death would have been a violation of His character.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156214
09/16/13 01:50 PM
09/16/13 01:50 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Christ demonstrated that sin causes death. Saving Jesus from death would have been a violation of His character.

Those two sentences don't add up in my mind, especially seeing as God and Jesus never sinned.

Blesssings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156215
09/16/13 01:57 PM
09/16/13 01:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We want the truth on every point. We want it unadulterated with error, and unpolluted by the maxims, customs, and opinions of the world. We want the truth with all its inconvenience. The acceptance of truth ever involves a cross. But Jesus gave his life a sacrifice for us, and shall we not give him our best affections, our holiest aspirations, our fullest service? Christ's yoke we must wear, Christ's burden we must lift; but the Majesty of heaven declares that his yoke is easy and his burden light. Shall we shun the self-denying part of religion? Shall we shun the self-sacrifice, and hesitate to give up the world with all its attractions? Shall we, for whom Christ has done so much, be hearers and not doers of his words? Shall we, by our listless, inactive lives, deny our faith, and make Jesus ashamed to call us his brethren? The ten commandments came from the highest authority, and are we obeying them? They are the will of God made known to man. It was Satan that commenced to war against them, and it is he that inspires men to keep up the warfare. {RH, August 25, 1885 par. 15}


Precious statement, that one.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156222
09/16/13 03:24 PM
09/16/13 03:24 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,475
Midland
Yes, "They are the will of God made known to man".

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156231
09/16/13 04:50 PM
09/16/13 04:50 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Arnold, there are questions connected with the nature of God which require an almighty insight to answer. Are some of your questions approaching this old adage:

If God is almighty could He create a stone which is so heavy that He cannot lift it Himself?

Scripture teaches us that what is revealed about the nature of God is good for us to examine, but what isn´t is none of our business.

It's actually not that complicated or philosophical. You brought up that it is a law of nature that separation from God results in death. Did God create that law of nature? Or is it Satan who made it that way?

If Satan was the one who invented that law, can God override it? You said that God is almighty and we shouldn't even question His ability to do anything He wants to do.

So, either God made that law and He wants it that way, or Satan made that law but God does not want to change it at the moment. Either way, it is not God's will that it be any different at the moment.

We have been in agreement so far. Are you changing your mind? I have not.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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