Processes are like that. A beginning and an ending. People begin learning what Jesus commanded. Eventually they learn to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. They convert.

Indeed there is a process. The difference with us is that what you call conversion, I call sanctification. To you, conversion can take a long time to complete, then the believer is completely holy at the end. Most people call that sanctification.

For me, and probably others as well, conversion is not a change in every facet of life, but a change in the fundamental values of life. It doesn't mean that I always do everything exactly the way God wants it done, but it means that I WANT to do everything exactly the way God wants it done. I might not have arrived at my spiritual destination, but I have made a spiritual U-turn. That is conversion.

So would you say there exists no "born-again, baptized believers"?

One more analogy: Conversion is fertilization, sanctification is delivery. That's how I view it.

Convert. Converting. Converted. Conversion. Sure a lot of words, eh. You'll be happy to learn I believe the process of converting to obeying, observing everything Jesus commanded can happen relatively quick - a few months. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the work of a lifetime. It begins here with rebirth, continues through the process of converting, and will go on throughout eternity.

What word do you use to describe the process of learning and living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded? I use the word converting. But clearly you disapprove.

I don't disapprove, per se, because it is a very valid word to use in that context. However, the difficulty is when communicating with those who use it with a different meaning. From what I can tell, you use "rebirth" for what most people think of as "conversion." That's also valid. But it doesn't make for effective communication.

I call it sanctification. Your use of "sanctification" is also valid, but not common. If we used your definition, sanctification will never end, and nobody will ever be described as "sanctified." We would have to recall all copies of Sanctified Life, which would be very sad because that is one of my favorites.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." Repeatedly the Bible describes believers not sinning while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus. But I hear you saying, no, they are guilty of sinning unknowingly.

Whoever is born of God does not sin. Yet, whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

So if you ask a born-again non-sinner if he has sin, what would he say? Do you know any born-again non-sinners that I could ask personally?

I know some born-again people, but none of them claim to be without sin.

Have just been going through these discussions again. What I find "missing" is a clear understanding of conversion or the new birth. Yes, there are some good definitions in the material above, but this experience is so inclusive that it needs to be looked at from various angles.

What are some of the definitions missing?

I read that verse to mean when we are abiding in Jesus we do not choose to sin. This is not quite the same as we do not sin.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.