Arnold, I see now that I have to recant my previous statement about agreeing with you when I see where you are driving it. Your statement that God does not want to change His law even though He has the power to do so, actually questions the omnipotence of God. It is the same kind as questioning if God is able to create a stone that He is not able to lift.

Therefore your question if it makes anyone happy is kind of mute, insignificant. It puts you into a world of fairy tales. Yes, it could make the devil happy, but who else? What kind of happiness? Not the kind of happiness granted to the Christian. It might be more similar to the kind of frenzy sinful indulgences, drugs, certain music, etc. provides.

So, where does this question take you?

You are either unable or unwilling to explain the difference so that even an 8th grader can understand, but you sure to talk lots about it.

What do you think it should say and why?
(Seems like Johann had asked you do that some time ago and I'm still waiting)


Interesting comment. Especially since she wasn't talking about directly killing.

If you were absolutely convinced that God told you to kill me, would you?


And what "school" did you go to? Green, do you not understand she is talking about some urging not killing even insects? If you think it is talking about killing people, please demonstrate how you get that from the passage. I am truly confounded as to how you make such an application.

"Just acts"?Green, would you say the Jesuits were acting like God?

Obey without questioning. It is right because the superior said so. No individual thoughts are needed and in fact are banned. Obey as a ball of wax to be shaped and moved at will. "The sacrifice of the will and the laying aside of one's own judgment."

Is that what you are saying Green? If we think God does or will do something, then we are not to question whether the act itself is right or wrong, but because God is doing it, it makes it right?

So you would recant a truth you hold because it leads to a conclusion that does not suit you. That is a dangerous hermeneutic. If you happened to have a wrong idea, how would it ever be corrected?

In any case, let's dig deeper by backing up. What I am "driving" at is based on two premises:
1) It is a law of nature that separation from God results in death.
2a) Either God created that law of nature and He wants it that way, or
2b) Satan created it, but God is almighty and can change it if He wants.

That's it. Nothing fancy or tricky. I wholeheartedly agree with both.

So, which one would you like to recant?


Before we start worrying about the destination again, let's make sure we are headed in the right direction.

Are you saying that if the sinner was allowed to live forever, Satan would be happy with it? God wouldn't want that situation, and neither would the sinner himself? I just want to be clear that this is what you are saying.

BTW, I would agree with you if you were saying that. Be forewarned.

Why does God not want to change HIS law? Because it is perfect. The law is immutable, unchangeable.

Really green... Have I ever said it was wrong to kills insects? Nope. By your making this post, are you not violating the 9th commandment? You making a false witness? Just wondering.

That all depends on if you will present a tricky conclusion based on this. Unless I have that knowledge I am not able to answer your question, based on some terrible conclusions being presented on this forum. A burnt child avoids the fire.

As John McEnroe used to say: You can't be serious!

So if the conclusion is not to your liking, you will reject true statements? Or a statement's truth is determined by a following statement?

Here's the mathematical version of that: 2 + 3 = 5 I don't like 5, so I don't agree with 2.

I don't know what kind of hermeneutic this is, but it is dangerous unless one is infallible.

- It is a law of nature that separation from God results in death.
- God created the laws of nature.

You're not sure if you can agree with those?!? Perhaps we need to lay off the meat for a while and go back to milk. The answer is Yes on both. Unquestionably Yes.

Here is the conclusion: God is in charge, and He will ensure the best possible outcome based on the circumstances.

Is that tricky? You decide. I know that some here cannot accept it, but truth is not dependent on the opinions of man.

Johann, you must stand up for your beliefs. Don't let people bully you into accepting false theories. Look at the facts, study the premises, use sound logic to arrive at valid conclusions. If each step you take is according to God's will, don't be afraid to go where He is leading you. It might seem tricky, but there's nothing to worry about if it's correct. If it is incorrect, spiritual discernment and honest scholarship will reveal the error.

But don't ever get fooled into thinking that it is wise to ever think, "The Bible says that, but I am too enlightened to believe it." Brother, I commend to you God's word. It takes the faith of a child, but Jesus said that's the way it must be.

But let's establish our milk: In the beginning God created. Don't let anyone's sophistry make you doubt that fact. That's the fire you need to avoid.

Use the theological training and experience you have, coupled with the guidance of the Spirit, and all will be well.

I wish you were right, Arnold. My experience, thus far on MSDOL, is that if the problem is 4 + 3 + 2 the 4 gets "killed" by poisoned darts as if it did not exist, in order to get the required 5.

This makes it impossible to discuss things reasonably here on this forum.

I know what you mean. That's why I have been going very slowly with our recent discussion. There is a group within our church, and on MSDAOL, that believes God has somehow lost control. You will see the tell-tale signs in statements such as, "God can't ..." or "God wants to ... but ..." And it is all because people cherish certain conclusions.

3 + 2 = 5 You don't like 5, so you doubt 3 and 2. That's not the way to go about it.

If you know about 4, then bring it up. Then we can get 4 + 3 + 2 = 9, as it should be.

But never throw out some truth just because there are other truths involved. The only way to arrive at God's truth is to take ALL truth and put them together. Whether you ignore 4 or 3 or 2, Satan doesn't care. As long as you reject some piece of truth, your picture will never be complete.

For now, consider this: In the beginning God created. Is it God's will that death accompanies sin? Or was the death/sin relationship created by someone else?

That's the "4" some desperately want to kill.