But Tom, Daniel also said in the 9th chapter of his book: "We have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from thy commandments and ordinances". He identified himself with his people, but this could hardly be considered a correct description of his course of action.

Daniel is an excellent example. The sin of another is our own sin, except for the grace of God.

Regarding the Laodecians, as we grow to more deeply perceive the love of God, it seems to me we will view our ownselves as more and more lukewarm in comparison. I don't see how we could ever look at ourselves and say, "I'm hot! I have no need to repent."

The Laodecian condition is addressing a people who views themselves in a more exalted light than they should. Our church as a whole certainly fits this bill, and as individuals I know very few who don't also (and I wouldn't exlcude myself).

The Laodecian condition is much more pervasive than we think, I believe. The very fact that we don't recognize it makes it difficult for the Lord to cure us of it. How does the Lord cure us of a disease we insist we don't have?

The result of the Ladoecian condition as described by Christ is one we have to acknowledge, but you have to acknowledge it out of humility. Jesus said without me ye are nothing, and He tells the Laodecian church to buy of the eyesalve cause you are wretched, and naked. That eyesalve from Christ will clear up our eyes so we can see our true condition and submit ourselves to God.
However I believe that people individually need to get to that point, some are and some aren't. If we give God that time to spend with Him, lay our plans at His feet, ask Him to heal us, give us wisdom and understanding, and to forgive us of our sins then thats when things will get going.
Any thoughts?
God Bless,
Will

Yes, one thought....AMEN!

Well said Will.

--Ren

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Edited to remove unnecessary quote of Will's post as it is immediately before this post. - Daryl

[ September 22, 2005, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

I think a part of the problem is how we view criticism. Christ's criticism of Laodicea (us) is not out of anger or condemnation. It is out of love. He wants us to see our true state and our need for His changing power before it is too late.

But, I guess as people we see a personal critique in a negative light and reject the critique. We say that this is not me, but rather my neighbor who sits across the asile that has the problem.

We must humble ourselves and realize that what is at stake is eternity. We must swallow or pride and really search ourselves with prayer and fasting. Asking the Lord to change us before it is too late.

This is the message of love. And if it is good enough for Christ to write it in His Holy Word, then it is good enough to be preached from the pulpits. In love, but it must be preached.

--Ren

The reason why the Laodicean Church/Era/Condition can only apply to the SDA Church, and not Christian churches in general, is because only the SDA Church has been commissioned by God to proclaim the 3AMs.

The Catholic and Protestant churches are called "Babylon" in Bible prophecy - not Laodicea. Unconverted Laodiceans are "spit out" of the SDA church during the Shaking and the MOB crisis. Some of them join the ranks of the opposition (Babylon). On the other hand, converted Baylonians are "called out" (Rev 18:4) of the Catholic and Protestant churches and join the ranks of Adventism.

Rev. 18:4 hasn't happened yet. The loud cry to come out of Babylon hasn't been made yet (although it started in 1888; but it was resisted and died out).

Most of Christ's true people are still in the non-SDA Christian churches, and they have the same problems of lukewarmness we have. Their preachers try to meet it the same we often see in our church. Rather than presenting the true Gospel, one is exhorted to "try harder!" to "read the Bible, pray, and witness."

If taking the knowledge=wealth example made by Ren another step, it would show that the wealth or knowledge in this case is being placed where only God should be. The wealth/knowledge is viewed as sufficient for salvation, we dont need anything else like forgiveness or a relationship with God. Why would we need that when we have the TRUTH. The person thereby break the first commandment when giving wealth/knowledge the place only God has a claim to.

Mike
If there is a biblical foundation for this view of the churches and what they represent etc, would you please present it on this forum. The compact silence almost make it look like there is no answere to give. But surely the SDA theology is biblical, surely there are no important parts of SDA teaching that cannot be presented without using Ellens writings? Please prove that the anti-sda scoffers are wrong in their claim that SDA isnt based in the books of biblical canon but on Ellen Whites visions.

/Thomas

The book of Revelation mentions some rather interesting characteristics regarding His church (people) in the end times.

quote:

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Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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quote:

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Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

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God's endtime church keep His commandments, have the faith of Jesus and have the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the Spirit of Prophecy.
The question has been asked ad nauseum by opponents of the SDA church asking what commandments are being referred to.
These are the 10 commandments, and Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hinge on to "Love thy neigbor as thyself, and to Love the Lord with all thy heart, and with all thy mind" and thus you have fulfilled them.
Jesus was in the world and not of the world, and did as He saw His Father do. He is our example.
Many closet Pharisees who have fled the SDA church since they followed the letter of the law and had no heart will say "Jesus went to the feasts, so do you". Such rhetoric is a distraction to theplain facts and description of God's endtime people. Like it or not many will join the ranks of the Seventh-Day Adventist church since His sheep know His voice.
God Bless,
Will

Thomas, it is common SDA interpretation that the SDA Church is Laodicea and that the rest of Christendom is Babylon. Non-Christians are not symbolized by either one. If you disagree with this interpretation then it is merely a difference of opinion as to what these two places symbolize. Do you subscribe to an alternate interpretation? If so, please feel free to start a new thread on it. On this thread we are addressing a different question. Do you believe a lukewarm Laodicean Christian is in a saved state, that is, if they refuse to buy the things Jesus offers them?