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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Johann]
#156570
09/24/13 09:21 PM
09/24/13 09:21 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. I'm not talking about sin's entrance, but its exit. We can't explain how sin came to be, but this quote tells us who will dispose of sin. Some say that God will actively eradicate all sin and the sinners who refuse to discard it. Some say that God will simply let sin eradicate itself through the laws of nature that God has created. Either way, God is responsible for disposing of sin. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3} Satan wanted to "perpetuate an existence of sin and misery." But "holy angels" prevented man from eating the "life-giving fruit." Note that Satan wanted sin and misery to continue forever. Holy angels, not Satan's agents, were sent to prevent that. But they did not prevent sin, nor did they prevent misery. They prevented immortality. Assuming that these holy angels were commissioned by God and did their jobs correctly, we can conclude that God is responsible for this state of affairs. In short, Satan wants sinners to live forever, but God does not.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Johann]
#156571
09/24/13 09:23 PM
09/24/13 09:23 PM
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From Norway we see the news that the Lord saved the lives of Lutheran Missionaries in Nairobi last Saturday.
Was God not with those missionaries who were killed? I'm fairly certain that God was with John the Baptist, even as he was beheaded. Same goes for Stephen. Being with God does not necessarily prevent the 1st death. God sees reasons that we do not.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156579
09/25/13 12:41 AM
09/25/13 12:41 AM
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Rosangela - - PLEASE - Define God's wrath. HINT - Romans 1 is a good place to start. I agree. Romans 1 is a good place to start, and it says that God's wrath is against SIN. It has to do with sin, not with the sinner.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#156581
09/25/13 12:54 AM
09/25/13 12:54 AM
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156582
09/25/13 12:59 AM
09/25/13 12:59 AM
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Nature is not self-acting. Jesus employs it to serve His purposes. It would cease to act if Jesus ceased to employ it. Evil angels cannot cause it to act. They can manipulate it to cause the destruction Jesus permits. But nature does not derive its ability to act from evil angels. Only Jesus can give life to nature.
Do you agree?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156587
09/25/13 01:43 AM
09/25/13 01:43 AM
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WHO is being talked about in the quotation? Is it God? NO! What is God's roll in the last plagues? How do God's angels have power to harm the earth? By removing his protection. You serve an interesting God...a God who would send His own angels with vials of His wrath to remove His own protection! If God wants to remove His protection, or even if He doesn't want to remove it, why would He commission angels to remove His protection? This would imply that He is not in control of His own protection! In other words, your god is out of control, and can't control himself. The angels must help him to control himself. My God is in perfect control. He commissions the angels to do HIS WILL. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Revelation 15:1)
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16:1) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156591
09/25/13 04:26 AM
09/25/13 04:26 AM
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You serve an interesting God...a God who would send His own angels with vials of His wrath to remove His own protection!
If God wants to remove His protection, or even if He doesn't want to remove it, why would He commission angels to remove His protection? This would imply that He is not in control of His own protection!
In other words, your god is out of control, and can't control himself. The angels must help him to control himself.
My God is in perfect control. He commissions the angels to do HIS WILL. You have an interesting view which I do not hold. YOU still do not understand what God's wrath is, or you refuse to understand. You make some interesting accusations about God. Are not angels ministering spirits, doing the will of God? God is NOT the active agent in the last plagues. Satan is. You read Revelation as God being a god of violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is Satan's picture of God. Satan is the one that makes God out to be vengeful and severe. I thought you said you accepted the words of Ellen White? God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3} Many conceive of the Christian's God as a being whose attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. The Creator has been pictured as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgment upon them. In the minds of thousands, love and sympathy and tenderness are associated with the character of Christ, while God is regarded as the law-giver, inflexible, arbitrary, devoid of sympathy for the beings He has made. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 1}
Never was there a greater error. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 3} To picture God as the active agent in the last plagues, is to make God out to be exactly what Satan has said He is.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156593
09/25/13 04:54 AM
09/25/13 04:54 AM
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SDA
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APL,
Those quotes are not presented in the context of the seven last plagues. Find some that are.
Meanwhile, what exactly is in the vials that the angels pour out in those plagues?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156594
09/25/13 07:34 AM
09/25/13 07:34 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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APL,
Those quotes are not presented in the context of the seven last plagues. Find some that are.
Meanwhile, what exactly is in the vials that the angels pour out in those plagues?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Not in context???? God is THE SAME, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. This is who God is and how He is, He changes not. Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2} What Roll is God playing in the last plagues? One of protecting His people. What roll is Satan playing???? What is God's wrath? Read the opening post HERE
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156595
09/25/13 07:47 AM
09/25/13 07:47 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1} We are living in the time of the end. The fast-fulfilling signs of the times declare that the coming of Christ is near at hand. The days in which we live are solemn and important. The Spirit of God is gradually but surely being withdrawn from the earth. Plagues and judgments are already falling upon the despisers of the grace of God. The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. {9T 11.1}
The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones. {9T 11.2} The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger. {PK 277.1} WHO causes the diseasters at sea? WHO causes the Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fires and floods? WHO causes the plagues? This are the work of SATAN. And to say it is God, is that not siding with Satan's lie?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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