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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156597
09/25/13 12:00 PM
09/25/13 12:00 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
Mature minds understand that things like "plagues" can have multiple contexts and circumstances. For example, let's take that word "fire" that you mentioned in your list.
Why is God a "consuming fire?" Does God cause the "consuming fire" that HE IS? Of course He does.
So if I were to give you the answer you are fishing for, I would be wrong, wouldn't I?
To give more examples: WHO caused the fire that burned in the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the fire of the seven candlesticks, the fire on the mountain where Elijah hid, the fire that burned up the altar, the wood, the sacrifice, and the water that Elijah built on mount Carmel, etc.? WHO caused those fires?
What about the fires of Sodom and Gomorrha, the fire that burned Nadab and Abihu from the Most Holy Place, the fire that burned the fifty soldiers more than once?
The Bible tells us specifically that Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire" (i.e. GOD, as only God is an eternal fire) for an example to us. An example of what? Of what is yet to come.
Some plagues are caused by the devil. Some aren't. The Bible speaks of both kinds. A mature mind is able to comprehend these things.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156598
09/25/13 01:20 PM
09/25/13 01:20 PM
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APL, please answer my question regarding nature being self-acting. If you have already answered it somewhere please post a link to it. Thank you. If Jesus need only withdraw His restraining hand in order for the forces of nature to cause death, disease, and disaster doesn't it imply nature is self-acting?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156600
09/25/13 02:20 PM
09/25/13 02:20 PM
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Whatever the appearance may be, every life centered in self is squandered. Whoever attempts to live apart from God is wasting his substance. He is squandering the precious years, squandering the powers of mind and heart and soul, and working to make himself bankrupt for eternity. The man who separates from God that he may serve himself, is the slave of mammon. The mind that God created for the companionship of angels has become degraded to the service of that which is earthly and bestial. This is the end to which self-serving tends. {COL 200.3}
If you have chosen such a life, you know that you are spending money for that which is not bread, and labor for that which satisfieth not. There come to you hours when you realize your degradation. Alone in the far country you feel your misery, and in despair you cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Rom_7:24. It is the statement of a universal truth which is contained in the prophet's words, "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited." Jer_17:5-6. God "maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mat_5:45); but men have the power to shut themselves away from sunshine and shower. So while the Sun of Righteousness shines, and the showers of grace fall freely for all, we may by separating ourselves from God still "inhabit the parched places in the wilderness." {COL 201.1}
The love of God still yearns over the one who has chosen to separate from Him, and He sets in operation influences to bring him back to the Father's house. The prodigal son in his wretchedness "came to himself." The deceptive power that Satan had exercised over him was broken. He saw that his suffering was the result of his own folly, and he said, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father." Miserable as he was, the prodigal found hope in the conviction of his father's love. It was that love which was drawing him toward home. So it is the assurance of God's love that constrains the sinner to return to God. "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." Rom_2:4. A golden chain, the mercy and compassion of divine love, is passed around every imperiled soul. The Lord declares, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." Jer_31:3. {COL 202.1} The difference with the last plagues is that the wicked do not return to God. What happens to nature when God's power is withdrawn? Does it not go into a disordered state? Ultimately into chaos? God's power holds things together. Humanity is unaware of how they benefit from God’s power; that they are living under a divinely supplied umbrella of protection. In their folly, they leave God out of their reckoning. They do not recognize His power or how it is at work, and so they remain in ignorance of it and what it is doing for them. Therefore, for those who had not the eye of faith and could not see God’s wondrous power, the revelation could only come by the power being withdrawn. Then, as storm, tempest, fire, earthquake, or pestilence ravaged them, they could see by the might of what came, the measure of the power that had previously held it all back. This is not the way God desires His might to become known to humanity, for it exacts tremendous cost to life and land. Therefore, He labors with all the resources of heaven to prevent such a crisis from developing. But He cannot compel people to obey. They must serve Him from love―intelligently, or not at all. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. {GC 498}. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service. {GC 493}But despite the utmost entreaties of infinite love, humans such as the Egyptians will press on in defiance of love and entreaty to that point where God’s power will be revealed by its withdrawal.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156601
09/25/13 02:22 PM
09/25/13 02:22 PM
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5500+ Member
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Brazil
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I agree. Romans 1 is a good place to start, and it says that God's wrath is against SIN. It has to do with sin, not with the sinner. ? God hates sin, but loves the sinner. This will always be true, even at the Day of Judgment. But what I want to emphasize is that God's wrath is against sin. God's wrath against sin leads Him to eliminate it. In this process, sometimes sinners are not eliminated, sometimes they are eliminated. The elimination of sinners may happen through some appointed agency (as in the case of the flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah), through the abandoning of the sinner to his sin by God (as in the case of the destruction of Jerusalem), or through God's own glory (as in the case of the final judgment).
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#156602
09/25/13 02:24 PM
09/25/13 02:24 PM
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SDA
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I agree. Romans 1 is a good place to start, and it says that God's wrath is against SIN. It has to do with sin, not with the sinner. ? God hates sin, but loves the sinner. This will always be true, even at the Day of Judgment. But what I want to emphasize is that God's wrath is against sin. God's wrath against sin leads Him to eliminate it. This sometimes means that, in this process, the sinner is eliminate, sometimes the sinner is not eliminated. The elimination of the sinner may happen through some appointed agency, through the abandoning of the sinner to his sin by God, or through God's own glory. Rosangela, is sin a "thing" that it can be destroyed?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156608
09/25/13 03:30 PM
09/25/13 03:30 PM
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SDA
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Midland
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Nature is not self-acting. Jesus employs it to serve His purposes. It would cease to act if Jesus ceased to employ it. Evil angels cannot cause it to act. They can manipulate it to cause the destruction Jesus permits. But nature does not derive its ability to act from evil angels. Only Jesus can give life to nature.
Do you agree? What I'm questioning is what you are calling "nature". What is acting, what is life. Is a hurricane alive? Now here's something for you to consider. If hurricanes are created by God, but evil angels employ them, some have reported there are more hurricanes, (though not this year, or last year...) than before the global warming political bandwagon. For those of such a belief, would this mean that God is causing global warming? That is, define "nature".
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#156609
09/25/13 03:35 PM
09/25/13 03:35 PM
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But what I want to emphasize is that God's wrath is against sin. God's wrath against sin leads Him to eliminate it. In this process, sometimes sinners are not eliminated, sometimes they are eliminated. The elimination of sinners may happen through some appointed agency (as in the case of the flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah), through the abandoning of the sinner to his sin by God (as in the case of the destruction of Jerusalem), or through God's own glory (as in the case of the final judgment). Yes, is sin a "thing"? Would you say that God sometimes has to destroy sinners? Would you say eliminating or destroying would really be the proper word if God leaves a sinner to his own choices versus intentionally striking him with lightning?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156613
09/25/13 04:15 PM
09/25/13 04:15 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Rosangela, is sin a "thing" that it can be destroyed? Is love a "thing"? It's a principle, just like sin, and both principles are opposite.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156614
09/25/13 04:24 PM
09/25/13 04:24 PM
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Green - You are unconvincing. HOW does God destroy? Shall I give you again the EGW quote you love to ignore? I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} Green - Behold your God. See him "as He is". APL,
So you would invalidate truth because you do not know HOW it can be true? Would you say that God will not punish simply because your mind cannot grasp the manner in which God might do this?
Wait... Green are you saying that the quotes APL quoted are not truth?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#156616
09/25/13 04:45 PM
09/25/13 04:45 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Rosangela, is sin a "thing" that it can be destroyed? Is love a "thing"? It's a principle, just like sin, and both principles are opposite. So sin is not real. It is immaterial. How does sin then cause strife, disease, and death? OH - that's right, sin can't cause death, God causes death...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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