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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156667
09/27/13 02:18 AM
09/27/13 02:18 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Rosangela, is sin a "thing" that it can be destroyed? Is love a "thing"? It's a principle, just like sin, and both principles are opposite. So sin is not real. It is immaterial. How does sin then cause strife, disease, and death? OH - that's right, sin can't cause death, God causes death... Is love real, or is it "immaterial" because you don't happen to view it as embedded in your DNA? On the contrary, I see more "love" in my DNA than "sin." God made me. God loves me. It shows in His exquisite design and providence toward my happiness. He designed my DNA. Nature and revelation alike testify of God's love. Our Father in heaven is the source of life, of wisdom, and of joy. Look at the wonderful and beautiful things of nature. Think of their marvelous adaptation to the needs and happiness, not only of man, but of all living creatures. The sunshine and the rain, that gladden and refresh the earth, the hills and seas and plains, all speak to us of the Creator's love. It is God who supplies the daily needs of all His creatures. ... {SC 9.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156668
09/27/13 03:02 AM
09/27/13 03:02 AM
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HOW does sin cause cancer, not only in humans, but animals? HOW does sin causes all the problems we see in both plants and animals? Do you have an answer? No, you don't. I guess your happy with that...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156671
09/27/13 04:05 AM
09/27/13 04:05 AM
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HOW does sin cause cancer, not only in humans, but animals? HOW does sin causes all the problems we see in both plants and animals? Do you have an answer? No, you don't. I guess your happy with that... I'm not sure who you are addressing. I hadn't mentioned cancer, but I do have some thoughts about how that is caused. We violate the laws of health through our transgression. We are intemperate, imbalanced, and ignorant of what we need to do to maintain our health, all because of our transgression of God's law. When we allow our bodies to become run-down in health, the natural result is a reduction in our immunity to sickness and disease. Cancerous growths can then overcome us which would otherwise be unable to invade the body. Sin results in disease in myriad ways. Being ignorant of the laws of health causes us to expose our bodies to many toxins which can poison us and affect our immunity to disease. As for the disease itself, it is quite similarly affected by our sin to become what it is. Look at "bird flu" for example. It developed in the unnatural feeding cycle between fish and birds in parts of Asia where fish farms use poultry droppings as feed, and the unused fish parts were ground into the feed of the poultry. In nature, this would never have happened. But when man seeks to violate the natural laws of health for his own financial gain, he will learn the strength of those laws. We could speak of "mad cow's disease," Alzheimer's, fibromyalgia, and a host of other diseases in similar terms--each with their own causative "agents" that were brought about by transgression of God's laws. Fibromyalgia, for example, is a disease caused by mercury poisoning, but the devil has managed to keep the facts out of sight so that people do not realize this. In their ignorance, they expose themselves to thimerosal in vaccines (more than 50% mercury by weight), to mercury in so-called "silver amalgam" fillings (again more than 50% mercury by weight), to the gases of broken fluorescent light bulbs (and smaller amounts of the mercury vapor may leak through the glass), and so on. We burn coal to generate electricity and release tons of mercury into the atmosphere every year--little understanding the results of this to our health. Mercury: Coal plants are responsible for more than half of the U.S. human-caused emissions of mercury, a toxic heavy metal that causes brain damage and heart problems. Just 1/70th of a teaspoon of mercury deposited on a 25-acre lake can make the fish unsafe to eat. A typical uncontrolled coal plants emits approximately 170 pounds of mercury each year. Activated carbon injection technology can reduce mercury emissions by up to 90 percent when combined with baghouses. ACI technology is currently found on just 8 percent of the U.S. coal fleet. And in that little snippet, they haven't touched the tip of the iceberg with mercury. Look at what Mrs. White says about it: The third case was again presented before me, that of the young man to whom had been administered calomel. He was a pitiful sufferer. His limbs were crippled, and he was greatly deformed. He stated that his sufferings were beyond description, and life was to him a great burden. The gentleman whom I have repeatedly mentioned, looked upon the sufferer with sadness and pity, and said,-- {2SM 449.2}
"This is the effect of calomel. It torments the system as long as there is a particle left in it. It ever lives, not losing its properties by its long stay in the living system. It inflames the joints, and often sends rottenness into the bones. It frequently manifests itself in tumors, ulcers, and cancers, years after it has been introduced into the system." {2SM 449.3}
Mercury, calomel, and quinine have brought their amount of wretchedness, which the day of God alone will fully reveal. Preparations of mercury and calomel taken into the system ever retain their poisonous strength as long as there is a particle of it left in the system. These poisonous preparations have destroyed their millions, and left sufferers upon the earth to linger out a miserable existence. All are better off without these dangerous mixtures. Miserable sufferers, with disease in almost every form, mis-shapen by suffering, with dreadful ulcers, and pains in the bones, loss of teeth, loss of memory, and impaired sight, are to be seen almost every where. They are victims of poisonous preparations, which have been, in many cases, administered to cure some slight indisposition, which after a day or two of fasting would have disappeared without medicine. But poisonous mixtures, administered by physicians, have proved their ruin. {4aSG 139.2} Now, is mercury "sin?" Of course not. But through our sin, we allow it to disrupt our health. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156681
09/27/13 12:35 PM
09/27/13 12:35 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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I'm not sure who you are addressing. I hadn't mentioned cancer, but I do have some thoughts about how that is caused. I doubt that when Adam and Eve saw the first leaf die, due to sin, that it was caused by mercury poisoning. The curses in Genesis 3 are not caused by mercury poisoning. I'll postulate, not blindly mind you, that mercury would have had no deleterious effect without sin. http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156454
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156683
09/27/13 12:44 PM
09/27/13 12:44 PM
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M: I hear you saying, yes, nature is self-acting.
A: And I hear you say that God is responsible for all things that happen, including rape and murder. Yes, Jesus is in control. He doesn't make rape and murder happen; but circumstances force Him to allow it to happen. Evil angels are not free to do as they please. Jesus establishes and enforces limits. Would you agree that there's a difference between making rape and murder happen versus allowing it to happen?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156685
09/27/13 12:58 PM
09/27/13 12:58 PM
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I'm not sure who you are addressing. I hadn't mentioned cancer, but I do have some thoughts about how that is caused. I doubt that when Adam and Eve saw the first leaf die, due to sin, that it was caused by mercury poisoning. The curses in Genesis 3 are not caused by mercury poisoning. I'll postulate, not blindly mind you, that mercury would have had no deleterious effect without sin. The curses were "caused" by God's own sentence, uttered in response to Adam and Eve's transgressions. But mercury poisoning may have been involved--we just don't know. Obviously, after Eve and Adam sinned, Satan had free reign, and was released from his tree. He could then go anywhere in the world and do much more. Perhaps the fruit was poisoned--for all we know. I'm not actually trying to state that mercury made the first leaves die. There is much about that subject that we simply do not know. I tend to think part of it had to do with climate change. Remember, Adam and Eve felt cold after they sinned. I've seen what frostbite does to plants many times in my life. Of course the first death was "caused" by Adam's own hand, or God's, killing the lamb of sacrifice for their sin and to give them something warm to wear. Why did God make them kill the lamb for their covering when God had the power to create clothes with a spoken word? Why did God instruct them to sacrifice innocent animals for their sins? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#156689
09/27/13 02:09 PM
09/27/13 02:09 PM
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M: I hear you saying, yes, nature is self-acting.
A: And I hear you say that God is responsible for all things that happen, including rape and murder. Yes, Jesus is in control. He doesn't make rape and murder happen; but circumstances force Him to allow it to happen. Evil angels are not free to do as they please. Jesus establishes and enforces limits. Would you agree that there's a difference between making rape and murder happen versus allowing it to happen? Yes. However, Jesus can prevent it. But He chooses not to when it is best to allow it.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#156692
09/27/13 07:04 PM
09/27/13 07:04 PM
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The curses were "caused" by God's own sentence, uttered in response to Adam and Eve's transgressions. Really... God CAUSED the curses? This is 180 degrees away from the truth. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} I dare say, most believe as does green. The degradation to the earth was NOT caused by God. This is the work of Satan, not God. It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. Genesis 3:17. The thorn and the thistle--the difficulties and trials that make his life one of toil and care--were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation that sin has wrought. The world, though fallen, is not all sorrow and misery. In nature itself are messages of hope and comfort. There are flowers upon the thistles, and the thorns are covered with roses. {SC 9.2} Did God create the thorns and thistles? NO. This was the work of Satan! All suffering is inflicted by Satan, and overruled by God for purposes of mercy. The time is coming when there will be no more mercy, then all will feel the full wrath of God, which is His giving up, letting God. Even "the curse" brings the wrath of God, but how? By the separation from God that sin causes. All Heaven mourned on account of the disobedience and fall of Adam and Eve, which brought the wrath of God upon the whole human race. They were cut off from communing with God, and were plunged in hopeless misery. {3SG 46.3} Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matthew 13:27-28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {2SM 288.2} "The Curse" is the results of Sin. This was caused by Satan, not God. SEE HERE
Last edited by APL; 09/27/13 08:01 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#156693
09/27/13 09:41 PM
09/27/13 09:41 PM
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SDA
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It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. I'm not talking about sin's entrance, but its exit. We can't explain how sin came to be, but this quote tells us who will dispose of sin. Some say that God will actively eradicate all sin and the sinners who refuse to discard it. Some say that God will simply let sin eradicate itself through the laws of nature that God has created. Either way, God is responsible for disposing of sin. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3} Satan wanted to "perpetuate an existence of sin and misery." But "holy angels" prevented man from eating the "life-giving fruit." Note that Satan wanted sin and misery to continue forever. Holy angels, not Satan's agents, were sent to prevent that. But they did not prevent sin, nor did they prevent misery. They prevented immortality. Assuming that these holy angels were commissioned by God and did their jobs correctly, we can conclude that God is responsible for this state of affairs. In short, Satan wants sinners to live forever, but God does not. Going back to this... It seems clear that God is able to perpetuate the life of sinners. In fact, He had to actively prevent them from eating the "life-giving fruit" so it wouldn't happen. However, we also know that sinners will not live forever. Either the sinner eternally dies to sin, or he eternally dies with sin. One way or another, the soul that sins will die. Since God will not prevent this mass death, we must conclude that He is either unable or unwilling to do it. Since God's ability to do anything is universally accepted, it must be His willingness that is lacking. So, ultimately, God is responsible for the eradication of sin and sinners.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#156694
09/28/13 12:11 AM
09/28/13 12:11 AM
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It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. Genesis 3:17. The thorn and the thistle--the difficulties and trials that make his life one of toil and care--were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation that sin has wrought. The world, though fallen, is not all sorrow and misery. In nature itself are messages of hope and comfort. There are flowers upon the thistles, and the thorns are covered with roses. {SC 9.2} Did God create the thorns and thistles? NO. This was the work of Satan! All suffering is inflicted by Satan, and overruled by God for purposes of mercy. The time is coming when there will be no more mercy, then all will feel the full wrath of God, which is His giving up, letting God. Even "the curse" brings the wrath of God, but how? By the separation from God that sin causes. Wow. You must be under a good Satan. You imagine that Satan would benefit mankind through those curses that the Bible and Mrs. White have both told us GOD gave for our "good." You really believe Satan is "good" to us? How can you read this passage and still think that God did not pronounce the curses upon us which have been for our good in light of the fact that we were now sinners? Yes, God uttered the curses. If you don't believe this, then I suppose you also do not believe we should try to follow any of the commands given to us in those curses. For example, you would not believe that women should be in subjection to their husbands as commanded in the curse. Also, you would not believe that men should have to labor for their food. This opens up huge cans of worms, including the fact that the government is often working against these curses too, in giving people a free welfare check so that they don't have to work for their food. Many people are living indolent lives in this very manner. But according to you, that would be just fine, because the curse came from Satan? I'm shaking my head at how anyone can truly believe your point of view on this question. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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