R:There was no death before sin because of the tree of life. Not partaking of the tree of life would bring death, sin or no sin.
I agree. This does not however say that Sin does not cause death. When man sinned, God interrupted the process (Gen 3:15). We didn't really know the ultimate results of Sin until the cross.

R: Death is a consequence of sin simply because it was the factor that prevented man from continuing to partake of the tree of life.
That is your assumption. It does not however agree with EGW. The Bible also speaks of WHO having the power of death (Hebrews 2:14)? And if death is just simply not eating of the tree of life, then it sure would be simple to destroy death (1 Corinthians 15:26).

R:Death is caused by several factors and it has nothing to do with sin as something physical.
That's interesting, because you have just said that accidents, storms, and murders cause death, which is certainly physical.


R:Love is not merely physical, and sin isn't either.
This is your assumption because what you believe to be the nature of sin. The devil has constantly misrepresented the nature of sin.

R:A character of love would have been bequeathed to Adam's posterity if he had not sinned, in the same way that he bequeathed them a sinful character after his sin.
How does Adam's posterity inherit from Adam? How would they have inherited character of love? How have we ALL inherited a sinful character? HINT: It is genetic!

Lecture #2 is now out:
https://kc.instructure.com/courses/871063

APL,

You obviously enjoy arguing. Your "physical" seems to evolve every time you post. One time it's DNA, another time it's the wind. This whole topic is just a chase after the wind to you.

APL, if you aren't murdered or caught in an accident or storm, will you still die?

If so, then I think you need to cut Rosangela some slack here, don't you?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You are not following the thread green. Please read the thread. My argument has not changed. Sin is the ultimate cause of ALL death.

I believe I have been following, APL. I agree with Rosangela on this one. Sin is just as "physical" as love, hate, and faith--each one is a choice. What is a choice? It's a decision made by the mysterious power each "free moral agent" has to choose his or her own thoughts, attitudes, and actions.

Faith is not a "physical" substance. It is a choice. And "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." If faith is not physical, but if you don't have faith you have sin, then what does that make sin? Obviously not something physical.

Consider this: Sin kills us spiritually, not physically. It kills the soul, which is not part of our "physical being." The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Forever.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You are mixing several things together. It is for blessing that we have these things NOW. Now that we have the knowledge of evil. Now evil is in the world. The question of where did the curse come from? Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Did God decide, to curse the snake, and make it crawl on its belly? Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Did God decide, "ok you bad women, I'm really going to make you hurt when you have a baby!! And your husband, I'm going to make him rule over you"? Genesis 3:17-18 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Did God decide to make thorns and thistles come up to make life hard for man?

Did God create the thorns and thistles???? What say you Green????

No. Not really. He's been calling black white for a long time.

Here's another:

Someone who curses you is actually blessing you?

That's why we get, "Torturing and burning you is for your own good."

Just ask the Inquisitors.

Although I'm not sure rape, murder, etc. could every be considered as "best to allow", I don't think anyone was bringing that up for disagreement.


In AFM, there was an article about the Turkish culture. "If someone puts a gun to your head and says, 'Love me', will you really love that person? Of course not, though you might try very hard to act like you love them in order to preserve your life. In Turkish culture, God is viewed this way. He is someone you need to be careful around. In fact, it is probably best to keep your distance....When your son dies in a car accident, God willed it. When you lose your job and go bankrupt, it is God's will....God isn't ashamed that He didn't make the doctor smart enough to save your son's life...All He cares is that you submit".

In what way does that compare or not compare to your beliefs about God?

The golden rule teaches, by implication, the same truth which is taught elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount, that "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." That which we do to others, whether it be good or evil, will surely react upon ourselves, in blessing or in cursing. Whatever we give, we shall receive again. The earthly blessings which we impart to others may be, and often are, repaid in kind. What we give does, in time of need, often come back to us in fourfold measure in the coin of the realm. But, besides this, all gifts are repaid, even in this life, in the fuller inflowing of His love, which is the sum of all heaven's glory and its treasure. And evil imparted also returns again. Everyone who has been free to condemn or discourage, will in his own experience be brought over the ground where he has caused others to pass; he will feel what they have suffered because of his want of sympathy and tenderness. {MB 136.2}

It is the love of God toward us that has decreed this. He would lead us to abhor our own hardness of heart and to open our hearts to let Jesus abide in them. And thus, out of evil, good is brought, and what appeared a curse becomes a blessing. {MB 136.3}

God wants us to submit -- not so He can arbitrarily rule over us, but because He wants to lift us out of sin, restore us into the image of God and give us eternal life.

There is no denying that sin plays havoc with our health, emotions, and characters; working it's moral and spiritual destruction, and totally unfits us as citizens of God's eternal kingdom. Satan's aim is rob us of eternal life.

God loves us! He wants us in his kingdom. Those who come to Him experience a very blessed relationship of faith and trust as they go through life.

I believe God's greatest interest is to save us, not just give us an easy ride here on earth. Sometimes, yes, it is His will for some to sleep the sleep of death, because He knows the future would bring them temptations they would not be able to withstand and they would lose their relationship, so He allows them to die while they are in sweet relationship with Him, knowing they will awake and live forever, when Jesus comes to take them home.

Also we are told:
" Trial is part of the education given in the school of Christ, to purify God's children from the dross of earthliness. It is because God is leading His children that trying experiences come to them. Trials and obstacles are His chosen methods of discipline, and His appointed conditions of success." AA 524

Also I believe God shields unbelievers from tragedy to give them more time and opportunity to really find Christ and salvation.

The real issue is TRUST and FAITH.
This life isn't all roses, and like the song says, God never promised that life will be all sunshine, but we trust God knowing He has our eternal good in mind and at heart and that He loves us. He is in the business of preparing us for eternity.

That's all good dedication, but what will God do to those that do not accept Him? THAT is the question of THIS thread. Does God punish sinners in the end?