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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157062
10/11/13 01:12 PM
10/11/13 01:12 PM
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kland  Offline
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Yes, according to this:
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus does not make people sick, but he causes them to be sick - is that what you are saying? Can Satan cause disasters? Or is it Jesus that really causes them? What would Job say?

Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.
"Jesus gives life to the laws of nature."
Not sure what that means. Life=action, or life means the potential. Does Jesus give life to hurricanes, does He give life to their destructive forces when they destroy people and property, or does He give life to atmospheric wind currents and sometimes they become destructive but not because He causes them?

"Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does."

Polio and other diseases caused their destruction because Jesus does what He does?
Or did Jesus create the bacteria and DNA code for good purposes and then they went bad after sin?
When I get poked by a thorn, is that because Jesus caused me to get poked?

"Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. "

Does that mean if it wasn't for Jesus we would all die?
Or does it mean if it wasn't for Jesus there wouldn't be so much pain and destruction in this world?

"Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels."

Does this mean Jesus employes evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature (because Jesus couldn't Himself?!), to accomplish His purposes of destruction, destruction of even good people? That the evil angels couldn't have caused the disaster except that Jesus specifically gave nature special "hooks" to allow the evil angels to manipulate it.

Or does this mean.... (I can't think of any alternatives MM could mean here)

So again, yes, it does seem that he means that when people are sick, Jesus directly and intentionally caused them to get sick.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157063
10/11/13 01:20 PM
10/11/13 01:20 PM
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kland  Offline
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MM, regarding dedication's post: Did God cause the dust bowl?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157066
10/11/13 02:48 PM
10/11/13 02:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
MM: Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.

Asygo: The fact that people, even bad people, and diseases and disasters exist means that God has not stopped doing what He does. If God really stopped, as some suggest He does on occasion, everything would cease to exist. All these "bad" things require God's power to be "continually exercised."

APL: Is it God's will we have hurricanes, earthquakes, and floods? Is that what God desires? Is not this planet a demonstration of what will happen when if sin were allowed to reign? These things are NOT God's will. The point I understand MM to be saying however is that nature works the way it does ONLY because of God, and if there are hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, it is because that is God's will. I hope I am misunderstanding him.

APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act? I suspect you believe Jesus is the source and sustainer of everything. I am certain you do not believe evil angels are the source and sustainer of the laws of nature that run and regulate matter, molecules, plants, animals, people, etc. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I agree with you Jesus permits evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to cause disorder, disease, death, and disaster. However, I'm not sure if you agree with me the laws of nature act accordingly because Jesus continues to sustain them. Nor I am sure if you agree with me Jesus establishes limits and works to ensure evil angels do not exceed them. Please comment on these two points.

I realize you believe Jesus has never employed the forces of nature to cause disease, death, or destruction. On this we shall have to disagree. We have already discussed the passages that clearly say otherwise (PP 109, 1SP 84, 3SG 82, etc). I realize you believe such passages must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdraws His protection and either permits the forces of nature to wreak havoc or permits evil angles to manipulate them.

Is disease, death, and destruction Jesus' will? He is willing to permit evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction; but He sets and enforces limits. Evil angels are not free to decide the extent. Jesus works to prevent evil angels from exceeding the limits He is willing to allow. Jesus is responsible for making sure evil angels do not cause more harm than He is willing to permit.

Why is Jesus willing to permit evil angels to cause trouble?

What would happen if evil angels refused to cause the trouble Jesus is willing to permit?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157067
10/11/13 02:51 PM
10/11/13 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
So again, yes, it does seem that he means that when people are sick, Jesus directly and intentionally caused them to get sick.

You are mistaken.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157069
10/11/13 03:09 PM
10/11/13 03:09 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
So again, yes, it does seem that he means that when people are sick, Jesus directly and intentionally caused them to get sick.

You are mistaken.
But are you not saying everything happens because it is God's will and power? What are you saying????


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157072
10/11/13 03:17 PM
10/11/13 03:17 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
Why is Jesus willing to permit evil angels to cause trouble?
Read PP Chapter 1 - WHY WAS SIN PERMITTED. Read GC Chapter 29, THE ORIGIN OF EVIL. Sin destroys the sinner, not God. IF God had allowed the natural consequences of sin to happen, Satan and his angels would have died, but it would not have been understood that this was the natural consequence of sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157073
10/11/13 03:20 PM
10/11/13 03:20 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
What would happen if evil angels refused to cause the trouble Jesus is willing to permit?
Satan was free to do to Job what he wanted, except kill him, though Satan killed others! Satan did not have to torment Job, did he? God did not FORCE Satan to do anything evil. Evil does what evil does.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157077
10/11/13 03:59 PM
10/11/13 03:59 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
I agree with you Jesus permits evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to cause disorder, disease, death, and disaster. However, I'm not sure if you agree with me the laws of nature act accordingly because Jesus continues to sustain them. Nor I am sure if you agree with me Jesus establishes limits and works to ensure evil angels do not exceed them. Please comment on these two points.
It is written: Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

The Ministry of Healing speaks about this:
Originally Posted By: EGW
The Saviour in His miracles revealed the power that is continually at work in man’s behalf, to sustain and to heal him. Through the agencies of nature, God is working, day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment, to keep us alive, to build up and restore us. When any part of the body sustains injury, a healing process is at once begun; nature’s agencies are set at work to restore soundness. But the power working through these agencies is the power of God. All life-giving power is from Him. When one recovers from disease, it is God who restores him. {MH 112.1}

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

The words spoken to Israel are true today of those who recover health of body or health of soul. “I am the Lord that healeth thee.” Exo_15:26. {MH 113.2}

The desire of God for every human being is expressed in the words, “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” 3Jn_1:2. {MH 113.3}
He it is who “forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies.” Psa_103:3-4. {MH 113.4}

When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the afflicted ones, “Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” Joh_5:14. Thus He taught that they had brought disease upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and that health could be preserved only by obedience. {MH 113.5}

The physician should teach his patients that they are to cooperate with God in the work of restoration. The physician has a continually increasing realization of the fact that disease is the result of sin. He knows that the laws of nature, as truly as the precepts of the Decalogue, are divine, and that only in obedience to them can health be recovered or preserved. He sees many suffering as the result of hurtful practices who might be restored to health if they would do what they might for their own restoration. They need to be taught that every practice which destroys the physical, mental, or spiritual energies is sin, and that health is to be secured through obedience to the laws that God has established for the good of all mankind. {MH 113.6}

...

Let it be made plain that the way of God’s commandments is the way of life. God has established the laws of nature, but His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every “Thou shalt not,” whether in physical or in moral law, implies a promise. If we obey it, blessing will attend our steps. God never forces us to do right, but He seeks to save us from the evil and lead us to the good. {MH 114.2}
ALL sickness and disease are the work of an antagonistic power. Full stop.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157079
10/11/13 08:48 PM
10/11/13 08:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act? I suspect you believe Jesus is the source and sustainer of everything. I am certain you do not believe evil angels are the source and sustainer of the laws of nature that run and regulate matter, molecules, plants, animals, people, etc. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Did I misspeak? Do you believe evil angels have power to give life to the forces of nature? Do you believe if Jesus were to cease empowering nature to act that evil angels can empower them to continue acting?

Please bear in mind, I agree with you Jesus gives evil angels permission to employ the forces of nature to cause disorder, disease, death, and destruction. We are not discussing this point. The question we are studying is - Does Jesus also employ nature to punish sinners?

Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

Do you believe passages like the ones posted above must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction? For example, does Jesus expect us to read - "Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities." - to mean "Since the flood, God has [permitted evil angels to use] both water and fire in the earth as agents to destroy wicked cities."

Also, does Jesus expect us to read - "These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. . . . and to acknowledge the infinite power of God." - to mean the result of permitting evil angels to destroy leads sinners to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty and to acknowledge the infinite power of God.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157080
10/11/13 09:20 PM
10/11/13 09:20 PM
APL  Offline
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Jesus is the restorer, Satan is the destroyer. So take your quotes and place them with all EGW's statements to get the full picture!Jesus is the restorer, Satan is the destroyer.
Originally Posted By: EGW
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}
Is that not clear?
Originally Posted By: EGW
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1SM 235.2}
Does the story of Job mean anything in this context???


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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