I answered this to Green, See my reply to him above.

There is a will of man, but it is not free and far from it. It is extremely limited. Man's will is under subjections by so many factors..world, community, home, etc... events, weather, age, circumstances, upbringing, authorities, health, .... the list is very long what limits our will. Then beyond all of that, the will of the Lord is above all factors and He controls many events and factors that He can change all wills of men very quickly.

We are having this discussion right now. We do not know how much the Lord was behind the events in bringing us here versus our own will. I'm not saying man doesn't have a will but I wouldn't call it free when it is around 90% limited. But you may call your 10% what you can control as free is you want...But if your will conflicts with the Lord's plan...Guess whose going to have his will done?...It will always be the Lords will that will be done, and not yours.

From what I gathered, this is what I understand.

I do believe that Ellen White's early visions were from the Lord. However her interpretation of the vision shows that she still had some heart idols that needed some workings. We all have heart idols. They need to be identified at the least so we can leave them at the entrance before entering His presence to inquire of Him. If not, the heart idols will distort whatever was said by the Lord.(Ez 14) This doesn't make her vision not true and coming from the Lord.

Ellen White at that time, was a very young girl and didn't understand much of the Bible. She relied on the Pioneer's who brought the doctrines and she agreed to the ones she though was the best. She was relied(or assumed) that the Lord past usage of her, that He will tell her what was the best doctrines. They were all infactuated with the fact the Lord had used her in the early visions. However, what she didn't know was how to discern her voice apart from the Lord. And at time she mistakenly took her own voice as the voice of the Lord. It is no easy task to hear His voice. He speaks to all of us and we are all call to learn to differentiate it from our own voice. There's ways and it is described in the dietary laws(what spiritual food are clean) in Lev 11.

Ellen was a product of her time. She express what she understood the best she could. There's things she was revealed, and there's things she was not which did not come from the Lord.

What I admire and took to heart of what Ellen and James said, is not to take her words above the Bible and test all things. If you or any other SDAs would really follow EGW, they would put this into practice.

The main sin our church did is they desobeyed the Lord and constructed a house(denomination) while they were still in the wilderness. The Israelites were not allowed to build a house in the wilderness. It was against the Law. They were to move only when the Pillar of cloud or fire moved, and camp in tents from place to place wherever the Lord led them. This spiritually represents that we are pilgrims in the wilderness which is the Pentecost experience to learn the ways of the Lord's via various tests and trials that shows our heart while He reveal Himself. By learning His ways is one way to learn to hear His voice and differentiate it from all other voices in the world.

This is the Pentecost wilderness experience that is between the Passover and the Tabernacle Feast. Only when they entered the promised land at Tabernacle is their training complete. Only in the promise land can they build a house where they can live in the Lord and the Lord live with them symbolizing -- marriage.

But before the marriage ceremony happens(Tabernacles), it is forbidden for anyone to build a house which makes them enable to follow the pillar of the fire and cloud which leads us to the tests and new truth(revelations). This is the sin of the SDA church and all of those that insist that she has all the truths. Ellen White never said that and always said there was more truth to be shown. But the SDA church will never be able to be shown of it because they made themselves a house which was forbidden, and foolishly think that their house will never be destroy and will go through the tribulations while the reality is they are stagnate, blind, naked, etc... and does not hear the voice of the Lord nor can they follow His leadings.

Elle,

I understand that English may not be your native tongue. It is, however, my mother tongue. Furthermore, I'm an English teacher. I am nearly daily dealing with English grammar, meaning, or translation to other languages.

In this case, your premise is built upon an incomplete understanding of just one word--one word that makes all the difference to the meaning of the passage. It is a word that is infrequently used nowadays with the meaning it held at the time the Bible was translated to English. But we still can and sometimes do use it that way.

The word is "will." "Will" usually, in modern English, is used strictly as a helping verb (or auxiliary verb) in conjunction with another verb in its infinite form to indicate a future tense. However, "will" has another very important usage: it also means want. The modal verb "would," along with "will," can have this same connotation. For example, the Greek word behind "will have" (all men to be saved) is number 2309, and is also used in the following verse as "would."



That shows desire not literal future. If it meant what people "will" do to us in the future, then the saying could be correctly paraphrased as "Do unto others before they do unto you!"

God wants everyone to be saved. But God does not always get what He wants. Not everyone will choose His salvation, unfortunately.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, this text source is Greek not English. You cannot argue with an picked English translation.

I would appreciate to see the source of your quote above which is just a man's commentary. There's many different opinions flotting around in this Babylonian age. Anyone can always find one that says what you want it to say.

You err in 2 ways

#1 This Greek verb is in Present Active form . In the Free scripture4all software, they have the parsing view of all the verbs that are used. The Parcing View of that Greek verb thelo is "vi pres Act 3 Sg" Indicative Verb Present Active tense. The Lord is presently active in bringing all men into the truth which will reach a climax point at the Great White Throne where all truth will be brought forth. Most of man is in denial today including yourself in rejecting the word of the Lord for the sake of man's interpretation. Today you can argue and hold on to your denials of scriptures, But at the Great White Throne in front of the Lord, anyone's argument won't stand. Thus as the Lord fulfills His plan described in His Laws that shows His Ways and His Character...by which will bring all men into His truth, His truth will set you and everyone else free from their denials and from man's false teachings.

#2. Thelo is not define as "desire". Strong has defined it as "to determine". Big difference.


AV 1Ti 2:4 Who will have(thelo, to determine) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

YLT 1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

CLV 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.


It is the Lord ways and plans that is always fulfilled and not man. Most will die as an unbeliever or as a rebellious beleiver according to His plan. Very few are firstfruit-loyal believers. That's His plan. There's a judgment coming that will bring all truth on the table where all men will submit to His judgment and they will have to pay for their debt as according to the law of Jubilee. This will produce righteousness in all men as it is writen "when judgment comes unto the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn rightesousness" Is 26:9 This is the Lords Plan and it will be fulfilled. At the Great Jubilee Day, whatever debt that is still due will be erase. Then the prophesy of Jeremiah 33 will be fulfilled. All men will know the Lord because His laws will be all written in their hearts. After the Great Jubilee, there will be no more need for one man teaching another anymore because everyone will know the Lord.

This is how salvation & truth is brought to all men according to His plan described in His laws in the Pentateuch.

Elle,

Perhaps you err in the very manner of which you have accused me. The Bible verse that I presented was not a "man's commentary." It was Scripture. The word "would" in it is the very same Greek word as the one translated as "will have" in the text we are discussing. I did not use any "man's commentary" to provide that text. Yes, it is a translation to English. But you are using the English word "will" yourself--and not looking carefully at its Greek meaning. You have now provided a Greek word meaning which happens to appear most similar to your viewpoint, while ignoring the fuller meaning of the word which might correct that view.



The word can mean "to desire, to wish, to love, to determine, to will, to be resolved to, to take delight in, etc."

God certainly wishes everyone would be saved. He certainly wants everyone to be saved. He would love to have and would take delight in everyone being saved. But none of these usages would require that everyone must be saved. On the contrary, Jesus Himself spoke of those who will be eternally lost on multiple occasions. Matthew 18:8-9 is one such passage.

Why would Jesus tell us to be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell if our soul was truly immortal and destined for eternal salvation? Would you make the claim that Jesus lied, or just didn't know what He was really going to do to save everyone?



The Bible is plain enough on this point, Elle, that none need err.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Seems that Elle hasn't yet responded to Green's last post.

I don't think I will have the time to respond this week. Maybe next week. 3 items to respond. The first is easy but the two Matthew parable will take some studying prior and typing another long one to cover them.

I'm just curious --
wondering if Elle has pushed aside Ellen White as a spokes person for God (having granted her just a limited and flawed role in presenting truth while denying the greater volume of her writings as merely products of her time, based on studies of men and laced with her lack of understanding)

and if she has replaced her with Stephen E. Jones and his Gods kingdom, ministries.

Browsing through S.E> Jones' many articles and the titles and descriptions of his many books at his Gods kingdom-ministries website, I see an awful lot of similarities in his teachings and what Elle has presented.

Even the oft used phrase "heart idols" is rather prominent there.

There we find the Universal Reconciliation ideas, the will that is not free but over-ridden by God

In his blog we find "Ben Carson said Obamacare is the worst thing to happen to America" and "mega spy center is going up in flames" both of which Elle posted in the "New Global Economic Restructure" thread.



Now I'm sure Elle has plenty of thoughts of her own, that she gleaned from her own studies, but just curious if this is where she got the paradigm (the new platform) of her beliefs from.



So now I wonder, who is this Stephen Jones?
He claims to have had a 10 year wilderness experience that helped develop him for his present ministry.

He seems very active in promoting his theology on the internet. He, with another, has a Burning Bush Bible Institute (Bible School) with courses teaching his material.

Excellent job dedication!

While sometimes wondering if she's getting this stuff elsewhere, I kind of assumed no one else was that far out.

Interesting to look at the financial aspect of this Jones. It does seem to suggest money. Wonder if he's buying gold? selling his gold and buying silver? Or maybe just selling his silver to the pavement buyers?

Would you say, Elle, that you are able to know how to discern your voice from the Lord's and from others? Are you able to read the Bible and find things which others can't find and able to understand it? Would you say you are enlightened to understand the things in a way others aren't able to?