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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157292
10/18/13 12:57 AM
10/18/13 12:57 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law.

That takes all the risk out of the incarnation, doesn't it? Had Satan believed this, he wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus.
No. Christ's humanity could have sinned.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157293
10/18/13 01:28 AM
10/18/13 01:28 AM
APL  Offline
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It has been stated in this thread that military action is not murder.
Quote - EJ Waggoner, from a time when EGW fully supported his work
Originally Posted By: EJW
Sin and death are therefore inseparable. Where one is found, there is the other. To save from sin is to save from death. Salvation does not mean simply deliverance from the consequences of sin, but from sin itself. The plan of salvation is not, as some have supposed, a scheme by which people are free to sin as much as they please, in the confidence that a profession of faith will save them from the just desert of their wrong-doing. On the contrary, it is a plan for the utter freeing of the man from sin, so there will be no cause of death. As there can be no death without sin, so there can be no life without righteousness. {October 6, 1892 EJW, PTUK 307.7}
Thus, military action with the lost of life is what, righteousness? I don't think so.

What about self-defense? Here is a quote from AT Jones:
Originally Posted By: ATJ
March 4, 1897. The American Sentinel

"SELF-PRESERVATION is the first law of nature."

But self-sacrifice is the first law of grace.

In order to self-preservation, self-defense is essential.

In order to self-sacrifice, self-surrender is essential.

In self-defense, the only thing that can be employed is force.

In self-surrender, the only thing that can be employed is love.

In self-preservation, by self-defense, through the employment of force, force meets force, and this means only war.

In self-sacrifice, by self-surrender, through love, force is met by love, and this means only peace.

Self-preservation, then, means only war: while self-sacrifice means only peace.

But war means only death: Self-preservation, then, meaning only war, means only death. While self-sacrifice, meaning only peace, means only life.

Self-preservation being the first law of nature, nature then means only death. While self-sacrifice being the first law of grace, grace means only life.

But death is only the wages of sin: nature, then meaning only death, it is so only because nature means sin. While life being only the reward of righteousness: grace meaning only life, it is so only because grace means righteousness.

Sin and righteousness, nature and grace, are directly opposite and antagonistic elements. They occupy realms absolutely distinct. Nature, self-preservation, self-defense, force, war, and death, occupy only the realm of sin. Grace, self-sacrifice, self-surrender, love, peace, and life, occupy only the realm of righteousness.

The realm of sin is the realm of Satan. The realm of grace is the realm of God. All the power of the domain of grace is devoted to saving men from the dominion of sin. This in order, that "as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign, through righteousness, unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

On which side do you stand in this great controversy?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157296
10/18/13 02:33 AM
10/18/13 02:33 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law.

That takes all the risk out of the incarnation, doesn't it? Had Satan believed this, he wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus.
No. Christ's humanity could have sinned.

If Christ's humanity had sinned, would the Divine Son have become a sinner?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157297
10/18/13 02:43 AM
10/18/13 02:43 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
[quote=APL]There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law.

That takes all the risk out of the incarnation, doesn't it? Had Satan believed this, he wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus.
No. Christ's humanity could have sinned.

Originally Posted By: green
If Christ's humanity had sinned, would the Divine Son have become a sinner?
Why don't you start a topic on it and discuss it?

Last edited by APL; 10/18/13 02:56 AM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157299
10/18/13 02:50 AM
10/18/13 02:50 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Soldiers in battle are not guilty of murder. Judges are not guilty of murder when a criminal is executed.
Green has been unable to present a distinction between murder and killing.
Can you?
Or do you also say that distinction is so complex and complicated that the distinction cannot be made?

Just a note here: My inability to explain the difference is directly related to your inability to receive it. If you were able, I would happily explain. You are not ready. If you were truly able to receive it, you ought to have discovered this truth already, long ago, on your own. I have no franchise on it. It's in the Bible.

(Keep in mind that I have already, long ago, explained this issue on this forum. You did not receive it then, and I'm too short of time or interest to explain it all over again now when it would be received the same way. Jesus said "Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they ...." I'm taking His advice.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157301
10/18/13 03:10 AM
10/18/13 03:10 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did Jesus command Moses to murder the Sabbath-breaker?

A: Please apply who God punishes as described in Great Controversy, page 36.

Here's GC 36:

Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

Are you suggesting evil angels murdered the Sabbath-breaker.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #157302
10/18/13 03:18 AM
10/18/13 03:18 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
M: Soldiers in battle are not guilty of murder. Judges are not guilty of murder when a criminal is executed.

K: Green has been unable to present a distinction between murder and killing. Can you?

The laws of most governments make a distinction. Does God's law?

Quote:
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

What is meant by "the same destructive power"?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157304
10/18/13 03:20 AM
10/18/13 03:20 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did Jesus command Moses to murder the Sabbath-breaker?

A: Please apply who God punishes as described in Great Controversy, page 36.

Here's GC 36:

Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

Are you suggesting evil angels murdered the Sabbath-breaker.
You asked 3 questions. GC36 was not to #1 or #2.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157305
10/18/13 03:42 AM
10/18/13 03:42 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: MM
The laws of most governments make a distinction. Does God's law?
All governments of this planet are of this world. God's kingdom is not of this world. I would not gauge how God acts by looking at the kingdoms of this world, of which all use carnel weapons, all use power over people. War is murder. This is a hard teaching for most Adventists. Particularly for the ones that must have weapons to protect themselves. See my quote on self-defense above.
Originally Posted By: MM
What is meant by "the same destructive power"?
HOW do evil angels exercise destructive power? We have gone over this before. Do you not recall? Read Revelation 7:1-3.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157306
10/18/13 05:26 AM
10/18/13 05:26 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

Your recent posts have confused me (Green Cochoa) with Arnold (asygo). I wonder how often you confuse truth with error in a similar fashion. One who is unable to discern whom he is quoting, when the names are directly associated with their posts, may have a similar difficulty understanding the spirit behind words he is reading elsewhere.

This is just a "heads up." Pay attention, carefully, for your understanding of truth may be dependent on it.

In my devotional reading this morning, I saw the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Often ask prayerfully, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? Am I in any way disregarding the divine precepts? Am I in any way placing my influence on the enemy's side? Am I showing a careless disregard of God's commandments? Am I willing to yoke up with Christ, to lift the burdens, and to be a co-laborer with Him? Am I studying out possible excuses for neglecting obedience to a Thus saith the Lord? Am I risking the consequences of neglect to obey the clearly revealed precepts of Jehovah because I am not willing to come out from the world and be separate? Shall the fear of man have a greater influence over me than the fear of God?" {TMK 297.4}

Particularly the bolded sentence was and is thought-provoking. It is our duty to analyze our own thinking at times, and subject it to God's scrutiny. Are we making excuses? Are we rationalizing things to make them appear as we wish?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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