Johann,

We are not dealing with pride here. We are dealing with truth. I'm glad to hear that you accept that God will punish, just as He has said He will. Perhaps I can close this thread and call the discussion finished?

I had thought you didn't accept this truth. Perhaps I was mistaken. I'm quite sure that APL and others here do not yet understand this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Of course we are dealing with pride, Green. What else than pride prevents a person from accepting truth? Adventist truth is intertwined. There is, in reality, not more than one truth, and you will know that from the writings of Ellen White and the Bible.

Yes, God punishes, and yet "the sinner brings punishment upon himself." That cannot be separated. Furthermore "By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God,... and the sure result is ruin and death."

God's truth is not one thing today and something else tomorrow. So we must accept it all or nothing counts.

I met a good friend of APL the other day. We talked for quite a while. I think you might agree with them if you accept that God does present a unified truth which does not change from one day to the next.

Then why so much verbiage in this thread to the contrary? It is the error that He does NOT punish which I have been so energetic in refuting. I cringe at seeing error on a site like this where people come to find truth.

If you believe God punishes, and you accept this truth, then you and I may not be so far different on this point after all. APL has yet to admit this truth. He believes that God does NOT punish, and that SIN does. He believes that when God says He will punish, He means that He will withdraw His protection and "all hell breaks loose," to put it the way many would. Yet that is not what we find in Scripture. God is in control of the elements and all that exists. His power is at work in nature and in all creation. His own justice will cleanse the earth of sin. Satan will not cleanse the earth of sin. Neither will sin. For sin to do this work would be like cleaning oneself of mud by scrubbing with mud.

God is very loving. More than we can even understand. And merciful. But He "will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:7).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You cut the sentence short. That is but a part of the truth. You have stated what you think of half truths. If is like you say then both you and APL have been stating half truths. You say you have been pushing your side to counteract the other. Is that any better?

Why not emrace the whole Truth? Why be satisfied with only half of it?

Johann,

I do embrace the whole truth. The part I quoted from you is a part that APL has not yet accepted, and the reason this thread is thousands of posts long already. If everyone here would accept just those two simple words "God punishes," this thread could be laid to rest.

Focusing on one point is often done when countering an error. Adventists often focus on the Sabbath. Is the Sabbath the whole truth? Of course not. But it is a neglected truth, and we do right to focus on it. The neglected truth in this thread is that part of your post which I quoted.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What Green wants me to say, is that God actively kills the sinner, that God uses Satan's methods. He claims that if God does not actively kill the sinner that He is a weak god, not a god of justice. I have stated "God punishes", but I ask the question HOW? This is where Green cannot accept the Bible and the inspiration of EGW. Green cannot accept GC36. His argument that this was in the past is wrong and he would see that if he read the whole paragraph, the whole chapter! Excerpts, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." Is that not clear? "The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." {GC 36.1} Is this in the past??? No, this is talking about the future. "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection." This is an "I was shown" statement. The judgments do not come out directly from the Lord. THIS - Green cannot accept.

The focus: The focus is not one just the Sabbath or how God punishes. The focus is on God's Law! ALL aspects of God's law. Thou Shalt not kill is one of God's law. ALL of God's law will come under attack in the last days!

APL,

I have read that whole chapter. I have read the entire book. The last few chapters of the book might give you more perspective of what the earlier chapter you cite was building toward. Have you read them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I have read the book, multiple times, and some portions are very marked up and annotated. Yes, I have read the last few chapters, and I have not forgotten how to interpret them from the very first chapter. I do not forget chapter one when I read the rest of the book. Why do you?