Would you say my observations are accurate? If so, no problem. I'm only trying to understand what you believe.

Johann, you cannot accept them all and still be in agreement with APL. They are incongruent.

This thread asks, "Does God punish?" The answer, if you will accept the Bible and SOP, is Yes.

Ask APL that. His answer is, "How?" If by some quirk of nature he should have children with fallen natures, he would be the type of parent who would try to convince a toddler not to play with knives, hoping the child would see the wisdom of such advice. And should the child disobey, APL would just sadly watch his child stab himself, and justify himself by saying the child brought about his own death.

GC has been trying to present a balanced view. I know that you have difficulty accepting that God has anything to do with anything that you find unpleasant. But just consider what would actually happen if God "lets go" and lets things just go on without His constant power.

What kind of Father do you think God is? Is He the impotent, "that's not my fault," "I didn't have anything to do with that" type of dead-beat dad? Or is He the "this hurts me more than it hurts you" type?

Are you the type of son who would love his father in spite of the chastisement? Or are you the type to throw a tantrum and run away from home?

BTW, if you think that APL's "suffering exists because God can't stop it" concept agrees with the Bible and SOP, a review of Great Controversy is in order.

Thank you, Arnold. Perhaps, if this were a game of "Dare Base," I would be the one who was "freshest" right now. I can honestly say I have completely read the Great Controversy within the past two months. There were many things I noticed that I hadn't remembered reading before. Some portions seemed like a review, but I learned much that I had not noticed before.

God is good. I feel it was such a blessing to read it. Truth is so important, and plays a vital role in our salvation. We reject truth, at any time or for any reason, at great peril.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

asygo has not concept of what I have been saying by reading this last post. His example of a child and and knife does not fit at all. God work with His children over and over. When by persistence, they reject Him, He lets them have their will. To try to make asygo's metaphor work, think more of a father working with his child for years. But when the child is 70 years old, does the father still need to take the knife out of the child's hand? I will repeat this quote from EGW AGAIN.

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

There is the bases to interpret the rest of the book.

How does that help you understand this statement from Chapter 39, "The Time of Trouble," of the book?



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you agree with them that God is unable to ________?

God is UNABLE to lie. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Two problems:

1. If I was the father, and my son is playing with a knife, you better believe he'll be punished long before he hits 70.

2. God doesn't take the knife from our hands. He wants us to let go of the knife because we trust that His commands are for our good, even if we don't understand why. That's the plan of redemption. The kid throwing a tantrum because his father took away his knife knows nothing of the Gospel. And if you think humanity is wiser than that, look for a baby who cries uncontrollably after having a piece of garbage taken out of its mouth. Then consider how many throw a tantrum when they can't commit a sin they love.

A problem persists with your comments, God does discipline, no question. THE question is what happens at the end of the sin problem. THAT is the question.

Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Hebrews 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

No discipline happens after death.

APL, do you agree with my observations stated above?