In the original creation, everything was very good.
Did God create leprosy? I guess MM you'd say YES. Do you agree? Next question - for what purpose? To torment humans?

"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies—“fire and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word.” Psalm 148:8. We are told of a greater battle to take place in the closing scenes of earth’s history, when “the Lord hath opened His armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of His indignation.” Jeremiah 50:25.
The revelator describes the destruction that is to take place when the “great voice out of the temple of heaven” announces, “It is done.” He says, “There fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent.” Revelation 16:17, 21. {EP 362}

It's not just the enemy who uses the forces of nature to bring destruction upon the wicked.

Do you think I was talking about the repentant sons of Jacob? We who accept Jesus (the seed) are sons of Abraham. The wrath of God is not against us unless we harden our hearts and forget the source of our deliverance. So why would you include the sons of Jacob in this context?

What I was speaking about are those who are suffering the second death after the second resurrection. God puts them out of their misery by raining fire down to consume them. I was trying to say God consumes them to put their suffering away.

The quote you used from Mal 3:6 is saying the Lord does not need to do this to the righteous. They will not be consumed by God's wrath because they have repented and been forgiven.



I don't know who Green is. My wife doesn't need to be won over.

I find it interesting that you use a sentence I used in the negative as if I said it in the positive.

I wrote that "God doesn't show himself as a wrathful judge to try and win them over" and you only quote "wrathful judge to try and win them over". Sounds pretty deceptive to me.

You keep looking at the outward signs, instead of the intent Kland and APL.

If God says "I will destroy the wicked" then He withdraws His protection and makes a way to send Rome to destroy them, who are you to say God did not destroy them? He said Himself that He did it.

"Thus the Jewish people sealed their rejection of God’s mercy. The result was foretold by Christ in the parable. The king “sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.” The judgment pronounced came upon the Jews in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation. {COL 308.3}

Just because God used the wrath of the wicked to accomplish His means, does not mean He had nothing to do with the event. In the day of judgment when Gog and Magog are standing before the judge, they are not left to destroy themselves. God makes an end to their suffering after the wages of sin has been fully paid.

But there is more to it than you will even see.

Great Controversy Pg 22

"Prophets had wept over the apostasy of Israel and the terrible desolations by which their sins were visited. Jeremiah wished that his eyes were a fountain of tears, that he might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of his people, for the Lord’s flock that was carried away captive. Jeremiah 9:1; 13:17. What, then, was the grief of Him whose prophetic glance took in, not years, but ages! He (Jesus) beheld the destroying angel with sword uplifted against the city which had so long been Jehovah’s dwelling place. From the ridge of Olivet, the very spot afterward occupied by Titus and his army, He looked across the valley upon the sacred courts and porticoes, and with tear-dimmed eyes He saw, in awful perspective, the walls surrounded by alien hosts. He heard the tread of armies marshaling for war. He heard the voice of mothers and children crying for bread in the besieged city. He saw her holy and beautiful house, her palaces and towers, given to the flames, and where once they stood, only a heap of smoldering ruins. {GC 21.1}
Looking down the ages, He saw the covenant people scattered in every land, “like wrecks on a desert shore.” In the temporal retribution about to fall upon her children, He saw but the first draft from that cup of wrath which at the final judgment she must drain to its dregs. Divine pity, yearning love, found utterance in the mournful words: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” O that thou, a nation favored above every other, hadst known the time of thy visitation, and the things that belong unto thy peace! I have stayed the angel of justice, I have called thee to repentance, but in vain. It is not merely servants, delegates, and prophets, whom thou hast refused and rejected, but the Holy One of Israel, thy Redeemer. If thou art destroyed, thou alone art responsible. “Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.” Matthew 23:37; John 5:40. {GC 21.2}
Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God. The woes of a fallen race, pressing upon His soul, forced from His lips that exceeding bitter cry. He saw the record of sin traced in human misery, tears, and blood; His heart was moved with infinite pity for the afflicted and suffering ones of earth; He yearned to relieve them all. But even His hand might not turn back the tide of human woe; few would seek their only Source of help. He was willing to pour out His soul unto death, to bring salvation within their reach; but few would come to Him that they might have life. {GC 22.1}
The Majesty of heaven in tears! the Son of the infinite God troubled in spirit, bowed down with anguish! The scene filled all heaven with wonder. That scene reveals to us the exceeding sinfulness of sin; it shows how hard a task it is, even for Infinite Power, to save the guilty from the consequences of transgressing the law of God. Jesus, looking down to the last generation, saw the world involved in a deception similar to that which caused the destruction of Jerusalem. The great sin of the Jews was their rejection of Christ; the great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection of the law of God, the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. The precepts of Jehovah would be despised and set at nought. Millions in bondage to sin, slaves of Satan, doomed to suffer the second death, would refuse to listen to the words of truth in their day of visitation. Terrible blindness! strange infatuation!" {GC 22.2}

So who is this destroying angel with outstretched sword?

"When the destroying angel was about to pass through the land of Egypt, and smite the first-born of both man and beast, the Israelites were directed to bring their children into the house with them, and to strike the door-post with blood, and none were to go out of the house; for all that were found among the Egyptians would be destroyed with them. Suppose an Israelite had neglected to place the sign of blood upon his door, saying that the angel of God would be able to distinguish between the Hebrews and the Egyptians; would the heavenly sentinels have stood to guard that dwelling? We should take this lesson to ourselves. Again the destroying angel is to pass through the land. There is to be a mark placed upon God’s people, and that mark is the keeping of his holy Sabbath. We are not to follow our own will and judgment, and flatter ourselves that God will come to our terms. God tests our faith by giving us some part to act in connection with his interposition in our behalf. To those who comply with the conditions, his promises will be fulfilled; but all that venture to depart from his instructions, to follow a way of their own choosing, will perish with the wicked when his judgments are visited upon the earth. {HS 217.1}

In essence Kland and APL are saying that the destroying angel is Satan. That is heresy.

What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. The intelligent mind has seen the sign of the cross of Calvary in the Lord’s adopted sons and daughters. The sin of the transgression of the law of God is taken away. They have on the wedding garment, and are obedient and faithful to all God’s commands. {21MR 52.1}

"Your children should be made to mind you. Your word should be their law. Parents, take hold of this work, for the destroying angel is soon to pass around and slay utterly both old and young—men, women, and little children. He will spare only those upon whom is the mark. Oh, do not be weighed in the balances and found wanting!" —Manuscript 3, 1854, pp. 6-8. (“Testimony for the Churches in New York State,” February 12, 1854.) {9MR 323.3}

So the Destroying angel is the same as the angels with destroying weapons in Ezekiel 9...

9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Here is a quote that makes it clear that the destroying angel is from God...

"The next morning a message was brought to David by the prophet Gad: “Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee either three years’ famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore,” said the prophet, “advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.” {TA 127.3}
The king’s answer was, ... “Let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, 747, 748. {TA 127.4}
Swift destruction followed. Seventy thousand were destroyed by pestilence. David and the elders of Israel were in the deepest humiliation, mourning before the Lord. As the angel of the Lord was on his way to destroy Jerusalem, God bade him stay his work of death.... The angel, clad in warlike garments, with a drawn sword in his hand, stretched out over Jerusalem, is revealed to David, and to those who are with him. David is terribly afraid, yet he cries out in his distress and his compassion for Israel. He begs of God to save the sheep. In anguish he confesses, “I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father’s house.”—The Spirit of Prophecy 1:385, 386. {TA 127.5}
The destroying angel had stayed his course outside Jerusalem. He stood upon Mount Moriah, “in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite.” Directed by the prophet, David went to the mountain, and there built an altar to the Lord, “and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the Lord; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.” “So the Lord was entreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.” {TA 128.1}

So in that quote from "Truth about angels", originally from the Spirit of Prophecy vol 1 we see that the Angel of death or destroying angel is the Angel of the Lord.

Who here has the audacity to say this is Satan?

"The angel of the Lord was commanded to put his sword into his sheath, and cease his work of destruction." {1SP 385.3}

You both should watch what you say from this point on because there is not much time for you to repent of heresy in the name of God.

If you are responsible for teaching others this heresy then it will be even worse for you, and you should do all that you can to prayerfully correct the errors of Satan that you have taught.

So many people think it is of no significance to teach in the name of the Lord, like they are no more responsible than kindergarten teachers.

If you have taught lies in the name of the Lord as if you are empowered to do so, there is a terrible reward waiting for you.