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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157894
11/02/13 09:44 PM
11/02/13 09:44 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

God's wrath is His giving up, letting go, and it will destroy sinners in the end. Christ experienced the second death, the hiding of the Fathers face.

But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. It was the hiding of His Father's face--a sense that His own dear Father had forsaken Him--which brought despair. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness. He had not one ray of light to brighten the future. {2T 214.2}


Again I totally agree with this quote which I used earlier but you do not see the other element of this.

What do you make of the quote in post #157893 above? How does this fit in your premise?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157895
11/02/13 09:52 PM
11/02/13 09:52 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Again I reiterate, there is a separation from God when men reject Him. The end of probation brings a final separation. The second death is everyone who ever died disconnected from God all brought together to see their end.

But the wrath of God against sin is fully realized when the scapegoat is burned. This is the end of Atonement. The goat for the Lord was the sacrifice that makes it possible to place the forgiven sins of the people on the head of the scapegoat who was led out to the wilderness. This is the 1000 years of judgment in heaven period when Satan is left on earth to witness the results of his leadership. Then the scapegoat is BURNED at the hand of the high priest. That is when the sins of the people were forgotten.

Satan will be burned by the presence of God when He is revealed and fire rains down out of heaven just like it did to Sodom.

Are you saying Sodom was destroyed by the results of sin only? God did not send the fires of hell to consume Sodom and Gomorrah?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157896
11/02/13 09:58 PM
11/02/13 09:58 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"And on “whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” The people who rejected Christ were soon to see their city and their nation destroyed. Their glory would be broken, and scattered as the dust before the wind. And what was it that destroyed the Jews? It was the rock which, had they built upon it, would have been their security. It was the goodness of God despised, the righteousness spurned, the mercy slighted. Men set themselves in opposition to God, and all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction. All that God ordained unto life they found to be unto death. In the Jews’ crucifixion of Christ was involved the destruction of Jerusalem. The blood shed upon Calvary was the weight that sank them to ruin for this world and for the world to come. So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God’s grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed. {DA 600.2}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157897
11/02/13 09:58 PM
11/02/13 09:58 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
“I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance,” said John; “but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” Matthew 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities “by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” The word of the Lord to Israel was, “I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin.” Isaiah 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God’s presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroyed “with the brightness of His coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

You do not know the Great Controversy and are not being motivated by the Spirit of God APL.
I have no problem with the DA quote james. It fits my paradigm exactly. Is this describing an execution? Not at all. It is describing how the universe really is. God had to shield himself from sinners, or else they would have died right in the beginning. I'm speaking of Satan. If Satan had been allowed to reap the natural consequences of sin, he would have died! But the universe would not have understood that this was the natural consequences of sin. They would have thought that it as God executing the sinner. The controversy had to play out. sin needed to be exposed for the heinous thing that it is. Christ is the ultimate demonstration of what causes death, SIN.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157898
11/02/13 10:11 PM
11/02/13 10:11 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Quote:
Every one of us should constantly bear in mind that this earth is not our dwelling place, but that we are to have an inheritance in the earth made new. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah symbolizes to us how this world will be destroyed by fire. It is not safe for any one of us to build our hopes in this life. We want first to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness.... {CTr 80.2}
Sodom and Gomorrah were like the Garden of Eden. The Lord had lavished His blessings upon that portion of the earth. Everything was beautiful; everything was lovely; and yet it did not lead people to honor the Giver. When the Lord rained the fire and brimstone from heaven to consume Sodom and Gomorrah, what a desolation! How easily could the blast of God make that beautiful situation an unsightly place. {CTr 80.3}
There is a lesson in this destruction of Sodom to those who lived in Christ’s day, and the message comes down the lines to our time. [Matthew 11:20-24 quoted.] We can see that their guilt was measured according to the proportion of light that shone upon them. And this is a lesson to every one of us before whom God has opened the precious light of truth.... {CTr 80.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157899
11/02/13 10:12 PM
11/02/13 10:12 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You were saying?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157900
11/02/13 10:12 PM
11/02/13 10:12 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
Did God destroy Sodom?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157901
11/02/13 10:14 PM
11/02/13 10:14 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Did God destroy Sodom?
Did God kill Saul?

Hosea 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157902
11/02/13 10:34 PM
11/02/13 10:34 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
Why don't you answer a question straight instead of continually diverting the subject?

Did God destroy Sodom?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157903
11/02/13 10:36 PM
11/02/13 10:36 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
Quote:
When the Lord rained the fire and brimstone from heaven to consume Sodom and Gomorrah, what a desolation! How easily could the blast of God make that beautiful situation an unsightly place. {CTr 80.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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