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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157944
11/03/13 10:20 PM
11/03/13 10:20 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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I couldn't find the quote I was looking for, but here is some more scapegoat information. I realize I miss spoke about the Scapegoat being burned, I meant to say the goat for the Lord was burned on the Miphkad Altar, symbolic of the hell Jesus went through for our sins. But the scapegoat being pushed off a cliff and being torn to shreds from the fall is symbolic of the death Satan will experience at the hand of the strong man after being thrown into the abyss. Mishnah Yoma – the ritual of Yom Kippur
(prior to this point, the High Priest has prepared himself by washing several times and clothing himself in linen before beginning the sacrifices of Yom Kippur)
3:8
He came over to his bullock. Now his bullock was set between the Porch and the Altar [two places in the Temple]. Its head was to the south and its face to the west. And the priest stands at the east, with his face to the west. And he puts his two hands on it and states the confession. And thus did he say: "O Lord, I have committed iniquity, transgressed, and sinned before you, I and my house. O Lord, forgive the iniquities, transgressions, and sins, which I have done by committing iniquity, transgression, and sin before you, I and my house. As it is written in the Torah of Moses, your servant For on this day shall atonement be made for you to clean you. From all your sins shall you be clean before the Lord (Lev. 16:30)." And they [those listening] respond to him: "Blessed is the name of glory of his kingdom forever and ever."
3:9
He came to the east side of the courtyard, to the north of the altar, with the prefect at his right hand and the head of the court at his left. There were two goats. There was also a box with two lots.
4:1
He shook the box and brought up the two lots. On one was written, "For the Lord," and on one was written, "For Azazel." The prefect was at his right, and the head of the court at his left. If the lot "for the Lord" came up on his right hand, the prefect says to him, "My lord, high priest, raise up your right hand." If the one "for the Lord" came up in his left hand, the head of the court says to him, "My lord, high priest, raise up your left hand." He put them on the two goats and says, "For the Lord, a sin offering." And they respond to him, "Blessed is the name of the glory of his kingdom forever and ever."
4:2
He tied a crimson thread on the head of the goat which was to be sent forth, and set it up towards the way by which it would be sent out. And on that which was to be slaughtered he tied a crimson thread at the place at which the act of slaughter would be made [the throat].
And he came to his bullock a second time and put his two hands on it and made the confession. And thus did he say, "O Lord, I have committed iniquity, transgressed, and sinned before you, I and my house and the children of Aaron [the priests], your holy people. O Lord, forgive, I pray, the iniquities, transgressions, and sins which I have committed, transgressed, and sinned before you, I, my house, and the children of Aaron, your holy people. As it is written in the Torah of Moses, your servant For on this day shall atonement be made for you to clean you. From all your sins shall you be clean before the Lord (Lev. 16:30)."
And they [those listening] respond to him: "Blessed is the name of the glory of his kingdom forever and ever."
6:2
He comes to the goat which is to be sent forth and lays his two hands on it and makes the confession. And thus did he say, "O Lord, your people, the house of Israel, has committed iniquity, transgressed, and sinned before you. Forgive, O Lord, I pray, the iniquities, transgressions, and sins, which your people, the house of Israel, have committed, transgressed, and sinned before you, . As it is written in the Torah of Moses, your servant For on this day shall atonement be made for you to clean you. From all your sins shall you be clean before the Lord (Lev. 16:30)."
And the priests and people standing in the courtyard, when they would hear the high priest pronounce the Name of God, would kneel and bow down and fall on their faces and say, "Blessed be the name of the glory of his kingdom forever and ever."
6:3
He gave the scapegoat over to the one who was to lead it out.
6:4
The eminent people of Jerusalem used to accompany him [the one who was to lead the goat] to the first booth. There were ten booths from Jerusalem to the ravine.
6:5
At each booth they would say to him, "Here is food, here is water." And they accompany him from one booth to the next, except for the man in the last booth among them, who does not go out with him to the ravine. But he stands from a distance and observes what he does.
6:6
Now what did he do? He divided the crimson thread. Half of it he tied to a rock and half of it he tied between its horns. He then pushed it over backwards, and it rolled down the ravine. And it did not reach halfway down the mountain before it broke into pieces. He came and sat himself down under the last booth until it got dark.
6:8
They said to the high priest, "The goat has reached the wilderness." Now how did they know that the goat had come to the wilderness? They made sentinel posts, and waved flags, so they might know that the goat had reached the wilderness.
Rabbi Ishmael says, "Now did they not have another sign? There was a crimson thread tied to the door of the sanctuary. When the goat had reached the wilderness, the thread would turn white, as it says, Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."
The scapegoat was NOT a sacrifice. The Scapegoat being pushed off a cliff was symbolic of the death of Satan suffering the penalty for the sins of those who have claimed the blood of the Lord and repented. The body of the Goat for the Lord was burned on the Miphkad altar where the Red Heifer was also burned after it's sacrifice. This altar is "outside the camp of the saints" to the east of Jerusalem. The causeway that the scapegoat was led over to the wilderness of forgetfulness was the Bridge of the Red Heifer, which passed from the eastern Miphkad gate to the Miphkad altar at the top of Mt Olives right above where Jesus sweat blood in Gethsemane dying our second death. Notice how the Mishna quotes "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" in regards to this execution of the scapegoat. Here is a connection between the Atonement execution, and the Red Heifer Ceremony. Concerning the Atonement Mrs White was inspired to say... "As the high priest sprinkled the warm blood upon the mercy-seat while the fragrant cloud of incense ascended before God, so, while we confess our sins and plead the efficacy of Christ’s atoning blood, our prayers are to ascend to heaven, fragrant with the merits of our Saviour’s character. Notwithstanding our unworthiness, we are to remember that there is One who can take away sin, and who is willing and anxious to save the sinner. With his own blood he paid the penalty for all wrong-doers. Every sin acknowledged before God with a contrite heart, he will remove. “ Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” {RH September 29, 1896, par. 12} Concerning the Red Heifer sacrifice, "After the tent had been sprinkled with hyssop, over the door of those cleansed was written: I am not my own; Lord, I am Thine. Thus should it be with those who profess to be cleansed by the blood of Christ. God is no less exacting now than He was in olden times. The psalmist, in his prayer, refers to this symbolic (Red Heifer) ceremony when he says: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.” “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free spirit.” The blood of Christ is efficacious, but it needs to be applied continually. God not only wants His servants to use the means He has entrusted to them for His glory, but He desires them to make a consecration of themselves to His cause. If you, my brethren, have become selfish and are withholding from the Lord that which you should cheerfully give to His service, then you need the blood of sprinkling thoroughly applied, consecrating you and all your possessions to God. {4T 122.4} If you look at the similarities and mystery of both the Red Heifer sacrifice and Atonement's execution of the scapegoat you will see many powerful lessons that have not been written in the fullness of present truth. They are mysterious elements that will be revealed to God's end time people. The mystery of Godliness is connected to these prophetic ceremonies.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157945
11/03/13 10:36 PM
11/03/13 10:36 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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So to you, SIN really is not the problem because sin does not kill the sinner. Sin does not kill. We are not saved from sin, we are saved from the Father's execution.
No, that is not what I believe. We are all born fallen. Our ancestors sinned and everyone who has been born on earth deserves to die eternally. Death is the result of sin and everyone has sinned, so we all deserve to die suffering second death in torment. Jesus came and suffered our penalty of second death, then He died for us so we could be redeemed from death. The agony Jesus suffered was ours which shows how terrible it will be for the unrepentant. In the second resurrection God gives life back to the sinner for the purpose of executing judgment. Why else would they be brought back?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157946
11/03/13 11:00 PM
11/03/13 11:00 PM
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So to you, SIN really is not the problem because sin does not kill the sinner. Sin does not kill. We are not saved from sin, we are saved from the Father's execution.
No, that is not what I believe. We are all born fallen. Our ancestors sinned and everyone who has been born on earth deserves to die eternally. Death is the result of sin and everyone has sinned, so we all deserve to die suffering second death in torment. Jesus came and suffered our penalty of second death, then He died for us so we could be redeemed from death. The agony Jesus suffered was ours which shows how terrible it will be for the unrepentant. In the second resurrection God gives life back to the sinner for the purpose of executing judgment. Why else would they be brought back? Executing judgment - you mean to punish sinners. For what purpose? What good does punishment do to one who will be gone eternally? No, the resurrection of sinners is to answer the final questions in the great controversy, will sinners change their mind about God and come into the city whose gates are OPEN. They won't. Everyone will know why and where they stand. In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3-4. {DA 58.1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157947
11/04/13 12:23 AM
11/04/13 12:23 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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The gates are open to them? At the resurrection of the wicked (2nd Resurrection) The gates are open for a while so that when Jesus comes down from heaven with the saints and touches down on Mt Olives and the great valley is formed, they see Him entering into His kingdom. But by no means are the gates open to them. The angels posted at the fall of Adam to keep fallen man out of the paradise are still there preventing anyone without the seal from entering. The gate literally closes to fallen men when the Bridegroom enters the wedding feast, at the end of their probation. That is when the angel does not see the seal of God but the mark of the beast and the destroying weapons are used. Those who are not sealed at the second coming die with a similar wrath against sin. The last thing they would see are those righteous angels coming. We are supposed to spiritually enter through the gate to come boldly to the throne of grace now, but soon the gate will be closed so that everyone who has entered stays in and those who did not enter stay out. Have you heard the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. The Great gulf is the 1000 years of judgment after Christ comes to take the saints to heaven. That time in heaven with Jesus, before the throne, prepares the righteous for the full exposure of the righteousness of God. When Jesus is crowned king of heaven and earth before everyone above the New Jerusalem, that is when every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. When the Father reveals Himself in fullness through Jesus, outside of the veil, everything wicked is burned up. throughout the universe there will be a burst of righteousness melting and reforming that to which God intends but the righteous will be with Him through it this time. They have believed in the story of creation and they are rewarded by seeing recreation. What a blessing. The Spirit through His servant said... But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2} Saith the Lord: “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.” “I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1} “Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1} Satan’s work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God’s creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying: “Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2} While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3} Every sin will be paid for, wither by the blood of Jesus or by their own. But the fact that sin is transferable makes it clear that Satan pays the full penalty mixed without mercy for every sin that Jesus atoned for. The key is in the fulfillment of the atonement sacrifice. Jesus is the propitiation, He is the way sins are transferred to the head of the scapegoat. If you think about this subject in prayer with that mindset you will begin to see your error. Those who have been redeemed are going to go trough this very test, so it prudent to pay close attention, wouldn't you say?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157948
11/04/13 12:40 AM
11/04/13 12:40 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
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A problem persists with your comments, God does discipline, no question. THE question is what happens at the end of the sin problem. THAT is the question.
Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Hebrews 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
No discipline happens after death. I don't think you understand the scope of God's sovereignty. He will fix sin forever, not just for earth. You also seem to think that stuff happens without God's power. That's just not true. Without God's constant power, everything literally falls apart. Use your scientific knowledge. So you do believe that God is responsible for all the evil. Interesting... Your ability to misunderstand is astounding. And your belief that _____ can happen without the need for God's power is also astounding. IF you believe that the wicked will *suffer* as they experience God's wrath in the end, ask yourself how that can be since they will die before the millenium. The dead know not anything. By whose will and power shall the wicked be raised to life again? Your attempts to turn God into a helpless spectator will fail. No matter how many men you can convince, all will eventually see that God will be very active in the eradication of sin. God will clean up; neither sin nor Satan will clean up, for their forte is in making a mess. You think you understand the Great Controversy? Good for you! Below is excerpt quote from article I resent wrote.
Not only had man come under the power of the deceiver, but the earth itself, the dominion of man, was usurped by the enemy. Through the plan of salvation, through the sacrifice of Christ, not only man, but his dominion, was to be redeemed. Because of the merits of Christ, all that man lost through sin was to be restored. The time would come when there should be no more curse, but the throne of God should be in the earth renewed, and his servants should serve Him. The promise would be fulfilled, "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever."
Through the plan of salvation, a larger purpose is to be wrought out even than the salvation of man and the redemption of the earth. Through the revelation of the character of God in Christ, the beneficence of the divine government will be manifested before the universe, the charge of Satan against God refuted, the nature and result of sin made plain, and the perpetuity of the law fully demonstrated. Satan had declared that the law of God was faulty, and that the good of the universe demanded a change in its requirements. In attacking the law, he thought to overthrow the authority of its Author, and gain for himself the supreme allegiance. But through the plan of salvation, the precepts of the law were to be proved perfect and immutable, that at last one tide of glory and love might go up throughout the universe, ascribing glory and honour and praise to Him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever. If everything else you wrote and believed were that true, there wouldn't be a problem.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157949
11/04/13 12:50 AM
11/04/13 12:50 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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I was looking for a quote that I couldn't find in the limited time I have tonight, but maybe someone could help. There is a quote from Mrs White where she says that in the second death when the wicked turn on Satan after it is revealed that he deceived them, fire bursts from his belly at the same time it falls from heaven.
This text I'm looking for has an element of the answer in it. If someone could help.
In second death both wrath of the physical world under the guidance of Satan is felt, and the wrath of the Father from heaven. Two distinct elements of hell, just like Jesus from Gethsemane to the cross. The Father cut His own Son off from His presence, but would not allow Jesus to remain in Hades NOR let His body see corruption because He was carrying our sins to put them on the mercy seat, but soon they will be cleansed from the sanctuary and put on the head of the scapegoat.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157950
11/04/13 12:57 AM
11/04/13 12:57 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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This is why the fundamental belief that the sanctuary holds the key of bible interpretation is proven to be perfectly accurate. The way God prepared the sanctuary and it's services are for our benefit in comprehending His intention and purpose for giving us His word. The way Jesus fulfilled these services are for our benefit in instruction in righteousness and comprehension of the fulfillment of prophecy (Spirit of Prophecy). Amen.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#157951
11/04/13 01:03 AM
11/04/13 01:03 AM
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To try to make asygo's metaphor work, think more of a father working with his child for years. But when the child is 70 years old, does the father still need to take the knife out of the child's hand? Two problems: 1. If I was the father, and my son is playing with a knife, you better believe he'll be punished long before he hits 70. 2. God doesn't take the knife from our hands. He wants us to let go of the knife because we trust that His commands are for our good, even if we don't understand why. That's the plan of redemption. The kid throwing a tantrum because his father took away his knife knows nothing of the Gospel. And if you think humanity is wiser than that, look for a baby who cries uncontrollably after having a piece of garbage taken out of its mouth. Then consider how many throw a tantrum when they can't commit a sin they love. But do you kill your son as punishment? Or do you agree killing cannot be "punishment"? Killing is not punishment in terms of educating the guilty. However, it can certainly be educational for others. See Nadab and Abihu. More importantly, death is a welcome respite to the wicked. Do you really think Satan wants to reward his followers with that? Or is it God who hands out the rewards? Furthermore, if the wicked die at Christ's second coming, how do they manage to storm the New Jerusalem? Who brings them back? And for what purpose?
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157952
11/04/13 01:12 AM
11/04/13 01:12 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Here is the bible text that supports what I was looking for...
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
But I'm still not seeing the EGW quote.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#157953
11/04/13 02:49 AM
11/04/13 02:49 AM
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Ezekiel 28:18 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
1) you have deviled your sanctuaries ( or sanctuary ) by the multitude of your iniquities 2) by the iniquity of your traffic - doing it to others 3) therefore I will bring forth a fire from the MIDDLE of you - when God lets go, everything contaminated by sin will be destroyed. 4) IT shall devour you 5) in consequence, you will go to ashes on the earth
This is God giving him up, letting him go. This is the second death, the penalty for sin. EGW puts it this way: We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1SM 235.2}
The same idea is Great Controversy page 36. WHY is this so hard? It is so clear! Read Steps to Christ page 10! The Father is exactly like Jesus. And EVERYTHING we need to know has been revealed by Jesus about God!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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