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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158045
11/07/13 04:28 AM
11/07/13 04:28 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Actually - I have been asking you this question for some time.
Four angels of Revelation 7 have power to harm the earth. How do they do that?
Have you read Deuteronomy 32 today? You should. Particularly from verse 20 to 30. What do you find? It will answer your question.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158048
11/07/13 08:46 AM
11/07/13 08:46 AM
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I would prefer that you would answer the question from your viewpoint. The Bible says things to me that it apparently doesn't tell you. Please answer from your own viewpoint.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158050
11/07/13 12:24 PM
11/07/13 12:24 PM
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The Bible says things to me that it apparently doesn't tell you. Right - that is why I asked you to read the verses I posted and tell me, "how readest thou?"
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158052
11/07/13 12:47 PM
11/07/13 12:47 PM
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APL,
You are gifted at "dodge." I tend to think you don't have an answer.
How do you understand the fact that Jesus is whetting His sword?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158054
11/07/13 01:15 PM
11/07/13 01:15 PM
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It's a fact that Jesus has a metal sword?!
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#158055
11/07/13 01:24 PM
11/07/13 01:24 PM
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It's a fact that Jesus has a metal sword?! You're misstating my words, or those of Ellen White, to add information that is not provided. He may have a metal sword. I don't know. Whatever kind of sword it is, it can be "whetted." You apparently missed my earlier post on this, so I'll quote it. APL, How do you interpret this? Young and old, God is now testing you. You are deciding your own eternal destiny. Your pride, your love to follow the fashions of the world, your vain and empty conversation, your selfishness, are all put in the scale, and the weight of evil is fearfully against you. You are poor, and miserable, and blind, and naked. While evil is increasing and taking deep root, it is choking the good seed which has been sown in the heart; and soon the word that was given concerning Eli's house will be spoken to the angels of God concerning you: Your sins "shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering forever." Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: "I know thy works." The third angel is leading up a people, step by step, higher and higher. At every step they will be tested. {1T 189.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158057
11/07/13 03:52 PM
11/07/13 03:52 PM
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A: Did you continue reading in the same chapter??? . . . "They were unarmed and unaccustomed to war . . ." Yes, I read it. However, of the "more than two million souls" (PP 333) it is possible some possessed weapons. Which is a mute point. The fact is they destroyed the Amalekites with the edge of the sword. Not once did Jesus counsel Moses not to wage war. Nor did He reprimand Moses. Through Moses Jesus "wields the sword of justice." (PP 300) Jesus expected Moses to fight: And the act of Moses also was significant, showing that God held their destiny in His hands; while they made Him their trust, He would fight for them and subdue their enemies; but when they should let go their hold upon Him, and trust in their own power, they would be even weaker than those who had not the knowledge of God, and their foes would prevail against them. {PP 299.1}
As the Hebrews triumphed when Moses was reaching his hands toward heaven and interceding in their behalf, so the Israel of God prevail when they by faith take hold upon the strength of their mighty Helper. Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive. While the great leader was pleading with the Lord, Joshua and his brave followers were putting forth their utmost efforts to repulse the enemies of Israel and of God. {PP 299.2} Jesus "would fight for them and subdue their enemies". How? Through divine and human effort combined. Divine "strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." I realize you believe Moses was mistaken. However, there is absolutely zero evidence you are correct. Moses did nothing without first consulting Jesus. The passage above makes it crystal clear Jesus expected Moses to defect the Amalekites with the edge of the sword. M: Nowhere does it say Jesus did not want the Jews to conquer Canaan with the edge of sword.
A: When they first set out to Canaan, they distrusted the Lord! They choose their own methods. First by not proceeding, then by trying to fight on their own. They were defeated and doomed to spend 40 years in the desert. . . . "God had promised His people that if they would obey His voice He would go before them and fight for them; and He would also send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land." (PP 436) 1. "He would go before them and fight for them;" 2. "And He would also send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land." Both are true. "And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. . . . I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee." (Ex 23:27-33) Deuteronomy
7:20 Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God [is] among you, a mighty God and terrible.
7:22 And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.
7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. Jesus would use hornets and also He "would fight for them and subdue their enemies". How? Through divine and human effort combined. Divine "strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." M: This theory assumes nature is self-acting. However, the following passage emphatically disagrees:
A: It is the restraining power of God that prevents Satan from using God's power to destroy sinners? God is the source of evil? What is what you are implying. Satan is not the source or sustainer of the laws of nature. "Nature is not self-acting; she is the servant of her Creator. . . . The hand of God guides . . . It is through his power" that nature acts. You seem to think nature can act without God's guidance or power. You seem to think if Jesus withdraws His hand and power nature will act violently of its own accord and power. The SOP says otherwise. Do you think evil angels are free to wield nature as a weapon and to wreak havoc as they please? Do you think Jesus can do nothing about it?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158058
11/07/13 04:35 PM
11/07/13 04:35 PM
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APL, With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4} Do you think evil angels would have caused the death and destruction described above? The present is a solemn, fearful time for the church. The angels are already girded, awaiting the mandate of God to pour their vials of wrath upon the world. Destroying angels are taking up the work of vengeance; for the Spirit of God is gradually withdrawing from the world. Satan is also mustering his forces of evil, going forth "unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world," to gather them under his banner, to be trained for "the battle of that great day of God Almighty." {7BC 983.1} Holy angels and evil angels are contrasted above doing what Jesus commands and permits. [Angels] are mighty, and they excel in strength. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men of the Assyrian army. They can, and will, soon visit the earth with judgments. In quick succession one angel after another will pour out vials of wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth. How easily could the angels, beholding the shameful scene of the trial of Christ, have testified to their indignation by consuming the adversaries of God! {ST, January 17, 1900 par. 10} Holy angels will cause the death and destruction described in the seven last plagues. I saw that the priests who are leading on their flock to death, are soon to be arrested in their dreadful career. The plagues of God are coming, and after one or two has fallen, and they are tormented with the plagues, it is not enough; for all this, his hand is stretched out still, and will not be brought to himself again, until his purposes are fully accomplished, and they will be led to worship at the saints' feet, and acknowledge that God has loved them, because they held fast the truth, and kept God's commandments. And his hand is stretched out still in wrath and justice, and he will not rest from his anger, until the hireling priests and all the unrighteous are destroyed from the earth. {ExV54 44.3} Do you think the work of evil angels will cause the results described above? The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}
God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}
How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3} Do you think the "forces of nature" can act without Jesus' guidance and power? Can it act "unregulated"?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158059
11/07/13 05:05 PM
11/07/13 05:05 PM
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SDA
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Today I watched the news program 60 MINUTES. An innocent man has been in prison for 25 years sentenced for murdering his wife. The prosecuter had hidden the testnony of his 3 year old son who described the killer and also thetestimony of a neighbor who had seen the strange car at the house.
The prosecuter hid the evidence because hfe wanted to finish the case in a hurry and get a price as the prosecuter of the year.
Today that prosecuter is a judge. The innocent prisoner has now been given $2, 000, 000.
It appears like some people worship a God who acts like that prosecuter/judge.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158060
11/07/13 05:48 PM
11/07/13 05:48 PM
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Brazil
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A: Did you continue reading in the same chapter??? . . . "They were unarmed and unaccustomed to war . . ." Yes, I read it. However, of the "more than two million souls" (PP 333) it is possible some possessed weapons. Which is a mute point. The fact is they destroyed the Amalekites with the edge of the sword. Clarke speculates that the Israelites plundered the dead Egyptian soldiers and thereby gained weapons they would later use in battles against the Amalekites, Amorites, and others.
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