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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158024
11/05/13 04:46 PM
11/05/13 04:46 PM
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It's not obvious to me, APL, what you mean. Please explain what you mean. Are you suggesting Jesus rescinded what He commanded in the OT? Did Moses misrepresent what Jesus meant? Not at all. Have I said that God did not make the commands He did? NO. The question is WHY? Did you read what I posted above? It appears to did not read it at all and/or choose to ignore it. Was Israel ever supposed to fight? NO. When they left Egypt, were they armed? NO. Where did they get the arms? See above. Egypt was defeated without Israel ever fighting. Why did they then fight lessor powers with arms? God was not able to defend them? They were never to have arms and use them. Examples Jacob and Laban and Jacob and Esau. The truth is that they were not to fight, EVER. Did the children of Israel comply? NO. Malachi 3:6-7 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers you are gone away from my ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, said the LORD of hosts. But you said, Wherein shall we return? The OT is a book that talks of a God that met the people where they were in their continue rejection of God. We mistake our view of God if we think that His dealings were His ideal. Divorce should be a clear example, God gave rules for divorce, but God HATES divorce. God also HATES killing.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158032
11/06/13 12:33 AM
11/06/13 12:33 AM
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The OT is a book that talks of a God that met the people where they were in their continue rejection of God. Did Moses reject God when he fought and killed the Amalekites? Did Moses reject God when he killed the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158033
11/06/13 01:33 AM
11/06/13 01:33 AM
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The OT is a book that talks of a God that met the people where they were in their continue rejection of God. Did Moses reject God when he fought and killed the Amalekites? Did Moses reject God when he killed the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? When the children of Israel left Egypt, were they armed or not? Where the children of Israel supposed to fight their way into Canaan? Have you read what I posted in the long post above?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158035
11/06/13 04:02 PM
11/06/13 04:02 PM
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Is an earthly judge a murderer if he sentences a man to death?
You are not getting the picture. Are the people carrying out the Inquisition not murderers if they are "only following orders"? If you were on the jury and you sentenced someone to death, would you not be guilty of breaking the 10 commandments? What is your distinction between murder and killing? I am talking about being judged by the established protestant legal system ordained by God in America and you turn it to the Inquisition? No one who was guided by the Spirit of God were part of that bloodbath. So I would hope it would be acknowledged that they would not be the ideal example to go to in light of the deliverance through Christ. Did no one in the Inquisition feel led by the Spirit of God? How can you be sure? Established protestant legal system. What about the Established punish-the-heretics legal system? Why do you feel one is "right" and the other is "wrong"? Consider Paul. Do you think he did not feel "right" when he was destroying the heretics? Current judges are only following the orders of the legal system. Fire starters were only following orders of the legal Inquisition system. How can you distinguish them? So lets leave the image there please. Do you consider the execution of the judgment of a US court Judge to execute a murderer sentenced to death with every avenue of appeal exercised, do you consider him a murderer? If you were on the jury and you sentenced someone to death, would you not be guilty of breaking the 10 commandments?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158036
11/06/13 04:18 PM
11/06/13 04:18 PM
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You do not understand the intent of God.
You've said that several times. Are you trying to say the ends justifies the means? In a sense yes, the world was perfect and sin changed everything, to get back to that state some things need to be destroyed. God is justified in destruction because He owns the universe, and He even gave all of heaven to purchase it back when we rebelled. So yes, the righteous end justifies the righteous means. And how is that not making God a tyrant: Do as I say or I'll destroy you! Love me or I'll kill you or set you on fire! Do you see God as establishing rules, but then when something goes wrong, He admits those rules were faulty so He has to step in and "fix" things?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158038
11/06/13 04:35 PM
11/06/13 04:35 PM
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M: Did Moses reject God when he fought and killed the Amalekites? Did Moses reject God when he killed the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer?
A: When the children of Israel left Egypt, were they armed or not? Where the children of Israel supposed to fight their way into Canaan? Have you read what I posted in the long post above? Yes, I read what you posted about swords. It is highly unlikely the Jews were armed during their enslavement in Egypt. It's possible, though, some Jews acquired weapons the night they left Egypt. "The bondmen went forth laden with the spoil of their oppressors." {PP 281.3} And it's also possible some of the "mixed multitude" possessed weapons. Nowhere does it say Jesus did not want the Jews to conquer Canaan with the edge of sword. On the other hand, the Bible very clearly depicts Jesus blessing them as they waged war. Jesus never once reprimanded them for waging war. Indeed, He commanded it. But the Egyptians had deliberately and defiantly cast off that protection, and therefore, the Spirit of the Lord could not maintain the waters in their position. As the army advanced, the Spirit of God had no choice but to retire before it. As that power was withdrawn, the waters simply rushed back to their original position, overwhelming the enemies of God and delivering His people. This theory assumes nature is self-acting. However, the following passage emphatically disagrees: Many teach that matter possesses vital power. They hold that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent power; and that the operations of nature are carried on in harmony with fixed laws, that God himself cannot interfere with. This is false science, and is sustained by nothing in the word of God. Nature is not self-acting; she is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul his laws nor work contrary to them; but he is continually using them as his instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." {ST, March 20, 1884 par. 5}
God has finished his creative work, but his energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of his creation. It is not because the mechanism that has once been set in motion continues its work by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats and breath follows breath; but every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the all-pervading care of Him in whom we live and have our being. It is not because of inherent power that year by year the earth produces her bounties and continues her motion around the sun. The hand of God guides the planets, and keeps them in position in their orderly march through the heavens. It is through his power that vegetation flourishes, that the leaves appear and the flowers bloom. His word controls the elements, and by him the valleys are made fruitful. He covers the heavens with clouds, and prepares rain for the earth; he "maketh grass to grow upon the mountains." "He giveth snow like wool; he scattereth the hoar frost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." {ST, March 20, 1884 par. 6} Jesus wielded water like a weapon and utterly destroyed His enemy: The Egyptians were seized with confusion and dismay. Amid the wrath of the elements, in which they heard the voice of an angry God, they endeavored to retrace their steps and flee to the shore they had quitted. But Moses stretched out his rod, and the piled-up waters, hissing, roaring, and eager for their prey, rushed together and swallowed the Egyptian army in their black depths. {PP 287.4}
"I will sing unto Jehovah, for He hath triumphed gloriously;
The horse and his rider hath He thrown into the sea.
The Lord is my strength and my song,
And He is become my salvation:
This is my God, and I will praise Him;
My father's God, and I will exalt Him.
The Lord is a man of war:
Jehovah is His name.
Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath He cast into the sea:
And his chosen captains are sunk in the Red Sea.
The deeps cover them:
They went down into the depths like a stone.
Thy right hand, O Lord, is glorious in power,
Thy right hand, O Lord, dasheth in pieces the enemy. . . . {PP 287.5}
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1} "The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158040
11/06/13 07:14 PM
11/06/13 07:14 PM
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Yes, I read what you posted about swords. It is highly unlikely the Jews were armed during their enslavement in Egypt. It's possible, though, some Jews acquired weapons the night they left Egypt. "The bondmen went forth laden with the spoil of their oppressors." {PP 281.3} Did you continue reading in the same chapter??? Had they attempted to pass through Philistia, their progress would have been opposed; for the Philistines, regarding them as slaves escaping from their masters, would not have hesitated to make war upon them. The Israelites were poorly prepared for an encounter with that powerful and warlike people. They had little knowledge of God and little faith in Him, and they would have become terrified and disheartened. They were unarmed and unaccustomed to war, their spirits were depressed by long bondage, and they were encumbered with women and children, flocks and herds. In leading them by the way of the Red Sea, the Lord revealed Himself as a God of compassion as well as of judgment. {PP 282.1} Nowhere does it say Jesus did not want the Jews to conquer Canaan with the edge of sword. For my Angel shall go before you, and bring you in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And you shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless your bread, and your water; and I will take sickness away from the middle of you. 26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in your land: the number of your days I will fulfill. 27 I will send my fear before you, and will destroy all the people to whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against you. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before you, until you be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red sea even to the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Who was to drive out the people form Canaan? The LORD. And with what methods? The sword? NO. Note that they were commanded again to not practice idolatry and to not make any aliances with the people of that land. All of which they violated! IF they had trusted God, they would have posessed the land. But they did not follow God. And the land never was entirely disposessed of the canaanites. When they first set out to Canaan, they distrusted the Lord! They choose their own methods. First by not proceeding, then by trying to fight on their own. They were defeated and doomed to spend 40 years in the desert. When they were at the first preparing to enter Canaan, the undertaking was attended with far less difficulty than now. God had promised His people that if they would obey His voice He would go before them and fight for them; and He would also send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land. The fears of the nations had not been generally aroused, and little preparation had been made to oppose their progress. But when the Lord now bade Israel go forward, they must advance against alert and powerful foes, and must contend with large and well-trained armies that had been preparing to resist their approach. {PP 436.4} This theory assumes nature is self-acting. However, the following passage emphatically disagrees: This means that the only one we need to fear is God. But: We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. It is the restraining power of God that prevents Satan from using God's power to destroy sinners? God is the source of evil? What is what you are implying.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158042
11/07/13 02:31 AM
11/07/13 02:31 AM
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APL, How do you interpret this? Young and old, God is now testing you. You are deciding your own eternal destiny. Your pride, your love to follow the fashions of the world, your vain and empty conversation, your selfishness, are all put in the scale, and the weight of evil is fearfully against you. You are poor, and miserable, and blind, and naked. While evil is increasing and taking deep root, it is choking the good seed which has been sown in the heart; and soon the word that was given concerning Eli's house will be spoken to the angels of God concerning you: Your sins "shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering forever." Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: "I know thy works." The third angel is leading up a people, step by step, higher and higher. At every step they will be tested. {1T 189.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158043
11/07/13 03:07 AM
11/07/13 03:07 AM
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Green, How do you interpret this? Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. {AA 12.2} God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} Blessings, APL
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158044
11/07/13 03:43 AM
11/07/13 03:43 AM
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I asked you first.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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