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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158194
11/11/13 03:57 PM
11/11/13 03:57 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

I stated your question completely verbatim via the "quote" option, in which I edited absolutely nothing from your post. You asked about a "metal sword." Mrs. White simply says "sword." Your word "metal" was added.

But my question is, if it's a sin for the Israelites to bear swords, as APL implies...why does God have one?
You still are misrepresenting and distracting from my question.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158195
11/11/13 04:04 PM
11/11/13 04:04 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I would be delighted to see a thousand more posts to discover the truth. But it won't happen. Truth that is once refused is rarely ever accepted again.
Determining truth such as you similarly decided.... nah, better not bring in health topics. Might be accused of off topic.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158199
11/11/13 04:44 PM
11/11/13 04:44 PM
Johann  Offline
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Who is really refusing to listen to anything but a biased view, perhaps supported by some select quotations?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158200
11/11/13 04:45 PM
11/11/13 04:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Here's one of the best descriptions of punishment:

Quote:
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Jesus will not simply withdraw His protection and regrettably standby as nature unleashes its pent up power.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #158201
11/11/13 05:06 PM
11/11/13 05:06 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Johann
Who is really refusing to listen to anything but a biased view, perhaps supported by some select quotations?


Johann,

Feel free to select your own quotations. I would have to say that the quotes I bring to the discussion are more trustworthy than the opinions you generally proffer.

Another way of saying this might be that the quotes I use are better than the quotes you fail to use.

In other words, if you disagree with the quotes I have selected, find a quote to support your disagreement. I base my positions on the most solid footing possible. There are others who are content with a "my professor in school said..." approach. I was never satisfied with such a blind acceptance when I was in school, nor am I now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158205
11/11/13 06:52 PM
11/11/13 06:52 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
So many of your select quotations, Green, are nothing but select quotations where you take no consideration to where the situation is further explained.

I have now been observing this peculiarity for at least a couple of years, something I have felt makes discussion rather difficult.

I realize the main reason for this is our disagreement on inspiration, where I feel that I am following the instrction given us by Ellen White while you follow only the quotations that you manage to manipultate to fit the views of churces who reject basic SDA doctrines.

I realize that you feel you are closer to truth than many of your Brethren, such as the authors of the SDA Bible Commentary, other SDA writers, unless published by certain Independent Ministries. One gets the impression you reject most Bible studies that have anything to do with SDA educational institutions.

This forum claims to be for members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Your discussion indicates that this is not the case, unless one agrees with your peculiarities.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158207
11/11/13 08:47 PM
11/11/13 08:47 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Here's one of the best descriptions of punishment:

Quote:
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Jesus will not simply withdraw His protection and regrettably standby as nature unleashes its pent up power.
Fire comes down from God out of Heaven: Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Take your quotes above. Put it into perspective of the book of Revelation: Revelation 19:13 "He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God." Read the context. The clothes are dipped in blood before the battle. What kind of warrior is bloody riding into battle? And remember in Revelation, the Messiah is described as a LAMB. And it is a slain lamb that does the fighting. throughout Revelation is a battle between the Lamb who is “faithful and true” , manifesting the truth of God’s loving, self-sacrificial character and way of defeating evil, and Satan, "the deceiver", who “leads the whole world astray”, Revelation 12:9 with the lie that the coercive power of the Babylon will win the day. And the righteous will follow the lamb where ever He goes, Revelation 14:4.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158208
11/11/13 08:55 PM
11/11/13 08:55 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
MM - why do you ignore statements the says God is NOT the executioner? Do they not cause you to think that perhaps you are not interpreting the more difficult statements correctly? In the same book, The Great Controversy, EGW says that God is NOT the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Are you arguing with me or are you arguing with EGW?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158212
11/11/13 10:04 PM
11/11/13 10:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, Jesus will execute punishment. "While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law." "God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary." "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

Those who might become co-laborers with Christ, and do good service in advancing the interests of His kingdom, but who use their talents and influence to tear down instead of to build up, are like noted rebels; their prominence, the value of the talent they use in the service of Satan, increases their guilt and makes their punishment sure. These will feel the wrath of God. They will experience what Christ suffered in saving men from the penalty of the broken law. The value of man and the measure of his accountability can be known only by the cross of Calvary. He who presents Himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove Himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. He who holds the worlds in position, who weighs the hills in scales, and the mountains in a balance, who taketh up the isles as a very little thing, will show Himself mighty to avenge His unrequited mercy and spurned love. Those who flatter themselves that God is too merciful to punish the sinner, have only to look to Calvary to make assurance doubly sure that vengeance will be visited upon every transgressor of His righteous law. {ST, October 24, 1906 par. 5}

Moses commanded the judges of the people to execute the punishment of God against those who had transgressed, and hang the heads of the transgressors up before the Lord, to cause Israel to fear to follow their example. The Lord commanded Moses to vex the Midianites, and smite them, because they had vexed Israel with their wiles, wherewith they had beguiled them to transgress the commandments of God. {1SP 327.1}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158214
11/11/13 11:44 PM
11/11/13 11:44 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
MM - there is no question, sinners will die. None! God will let them go, give them up. I'm quoting Romans 1. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked” Ezekiel 33:11. Isaiah speaks of the act of destruction as a “strange act” Isaiah 28:21. Hosea thus represents the heart of God in the face of necessary judgment: “How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together” Hosea 11:8. God's strange act is not when He acts like Satan, it is when He completely abandons sinners, not because He wants to, but He has to respect their freedom of choice. The sinner in a sense is his own punisher. James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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