APL, you seem to be suggesting serpents and natural disasters are equivalent. You also seem to think divorce, capital punishment, and waging war are equivalent.

There are similarities. God keeps the "natural" disasters in check. God kept the serpents in check. You did read the accompanying EGW quote, right? She is the one saying this, I'm just quoting her. Killing - is not killing transgression of God's law? Adultery, is not adultery transgression of God's law? YES to both. So when God's permissive will is read on the laws for polygamy and/or divorce, does this mean God sanctions transgression of the law? Not in the least! God is mitigating the damage. Ditto killing.

This is interesting coming from you. You say that nature is not self-acting, but man would live forever if they would eat from the tree of life. Is not God involved? What about Jesus? He is the life and the truth. He is the living water, the bread of life. However, I agree that the tree of life could prolong life. But what kind of life would that be? Sin is the cause of all disease and misery, not God. But maybe you don't believe that. Sin has been shown to be a hideous thing, and horrible thing. Sin has blighted nature. But God's law has been vindicated. The only reason man did not die immediately in the beginning was that God intervened. "... sin caused the death of the Son of God." {GW92 466.2} So sin does cause death. And it would have been Adam and Eve right away except for the plan of redemption.

This is the result of sin.


This is something that only the plan of redemption could reverse.

Adam and Eve before their fall, they enjoyed the presence of their creator. After their fall, they were fearful. Had God changed? Was God now to be feared where before He was not? Was God now to be their executioner, so they had better be afraid? Not at all. God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I'm not following. When you say Jesus willingly and directly causes disease and destruction, is that not the first death? Aren't you saying He is responsible for both deaths?

And here, you are saying the "lingering" first death is the result of 1,2. So when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy SE Asia, shouldn't you rejoice He is "implementing the plan of salvation and denying sinners access to the fruit of the tree of life"?


As APL already mentioned, are you saying satan was correct, that if Eve ate of the tree she would not die but it would be God who killed her?

If God causes disease and destruction, and everything God does is holy and righteous, why would you be sad if He is doing what is holy and righteous? Or are you now saying He doesn't always cause disease and destruction?

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Gospel means, "GOOD NEWS". If it is not good news, then it is not the gospel.

Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.

Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).

Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. Jesus never once commanded divorce. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.

A hard sell indeed! Well said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Kland, do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.

Also, do you think evil angels are free wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded?

MM:Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.

APL:Nature is not a kicking time bomb. You name, "Mountain Man". Have you climbed any of the volcanos in the Cascades? Have you ever been confronted witht he problem of warming temperatures and icefalls? No ticking time bomb there, is there? Have you seen maps of the Karsts of the Arabian peninsula? There can be huge caverns where a 747 can easily fit into, and yet only have a thin roof covering the cavern. Hiking in such areas can result is disaster if the roof gives way. Sink holes around the country are not ticking time bombs? What happens, does God just deside to let the hole collapse destroying property and taking lives? In the story of Job, was it God that caused the wind that killed Jobs children or was it God? It must be God under your view.

MM:Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).

APL:Animals act by instinct - - OK - Where did the instinct come from? Did God program lions to kill prey? Did God create fiery serpents with their terrible venom? God permitting does mean God caused. The story of Job should make this clear. Job was giving permission to Satan to treat Job nearly as he wished. Satan could have made Job the ruler of the world! The evil done to Job was not God's will.

MM:Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. Jesus never once commanded divorce. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.

APL:Did God give rules for divorce and polygamy? YES. Does this in fact prove that God desires and approves of these things? NO. Is killing and adultery both violations of God's law? Yes. They are not entirely different realities.

MM:The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

I have addressed these with scripture. God told the people how HE was going to GIVE the land to them. They did not comply. Did God abandon them? NO. There is no reason they should have ever needed to fight. You were in the military, is that right?

Exodus 23:27-33 I will send my fear before you, and will destroy all the people to whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against you. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before you, until you be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red sea even to the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me: for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.