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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158256
11/12/13 09:17 PM
11/12/13 09:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,540
Midland
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Kland, do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.
Also, do you think evil angels are free wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded? MM, have you seen me objecting to Jesus "permitting" things to happen. What I'm objecting to is similar statements such as: "Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction. He employed the forces of nature to cause the Great Deluge. Billions died." Nothing about permitting there. It's about being the direct cause and intentionally employing them. Do you still stand behind such statements? Do you understand there is a difference between permitting and causing? Causing and not preventing are two different things. And it's not just failure to prevent, but it has to do with people not wanting Him around. Which comes back to, you have not dealt with who killed Saul. Until you do that, you are going to have problems.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158259
11/13/13 02:09 AM
11/13/13 02:09 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Kland, please reread all my posts. You will find that I believe Jesus accomplishes His purposes in the following ways:
1. He does it Himself.
2. He commands holy angels.
3. He commands holy men.
4. He permits evil angels.
5. He permits evil men.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158260
11/13/13 02:12 AM
11/13/13 02:12 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, it appears as though you misunderstood my post.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158263
11/13/13 02:21 AM
11/13/13 02:21 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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This thread has given ample evidence for why I saw fit to keep this sort of discussion out of the "Extreme Weather" topic. It has now completely reverted to a "Does God punish" thread, and I am considering merging it with that topic. Thoughts?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158273
11/13/13 02:03 PM
11/13/13 02:03 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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This thread has given ample evidence for why I saw fit to keep this sort of discussion out of the "Extreme Weather" topic. It has now completely reverted to a "Does God punish" thread, and I am considering merging it with that topic. Thoughts?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. This thread was opened because you wanted it opened. You called me "my thread" meaning me, which implied to me that this thread can go where it wants without your imposed restrictions. You don't see weather events or other events in the environment as needing to be discusses as either a God ordained event or Satan imposed event. That's fine. This thread should be left just as it is and let it go where it goes. Moving it to the "does God punish" thread is not logical as this particular thread deals with environmental events.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158275
11/13/13 02:44 PM
11/13/13 02:44 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL, it appears as though you misunderstood my post. Really? Do you care to enlighten us?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158277
11/13/13 03:18 PM
11/13/13 03:18 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,540
Midland
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This thread has given ample evidence for why I saw fit to keep this sort of discussion out of the "Extreme Weather" topic. It has now completely reverted to a "Does God punish" thread, and I am considering merging it with that topic. Thoughts?
We were discussing how God directly and intentionally causes disease, death, and destruction. Right during the middle of all that, you start a new thread about Extreme weather. It appears to me that you wanted to show how God causes disease, death, and destruction. As far as this additional thread you started, you listed it as: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? A sign of what? Isn't that what the topic is, a sign of something? Whether it is a sign of God directly and intentionally causing disease, death, and destruction or something else?
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158279
11/13/13 03:23 PM
11/13/13 03:23 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,540
Midland
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Kland, please reread all my posts. You will find that I believe Jesus accomplishes His purposes in the following ways:
1. He does it Himself.
2. He commands holy angels.
3. He commands holy men.
4. He permits evil angels.
5. He permits evil men. So are you saying that what He does Himself and what He permits evil angels to do can be the same thing? When something like a typhoon happens, how does one determine whether Jesus did it Himself or whether He permitted evil angels to do it?
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158281
11/13/13 03:30 PM
11/13/13 03:30 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Kland, in practicality it doesn't matter which means Jesus uses to His accomplish His purposes - either way He is in control. Nothing happens without His command or permission.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158283
11/13/13 03:35 PM
11/13/13 03:35 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, please address each and every point I made. Thank you. 1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers.
2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus.
3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it.
4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.
5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts.
6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).
7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities.
8. Jesus never once commanded divorce.
9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.
10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical.
11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword.
12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.
13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.
14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded?
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