If I were tempted to kill somebody and I went ahead and did it, and was given the death penalty for killing somebody, and was actually executed, who executed me?

APL, if sin kills, how do you explain the fact sinners would live forever if they had access to the tree of life?

Did God kill you? The death all of us are ultimately interested in is the second death. Did Jesus die the second death? MM say no. But if you believe He did, then how did He die? And as EGW says in Great Controversy, page 36 in clear terms, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner". Is this an execution? God is NOT the executioner, this is clearly stated. And What is the sentence for transgression, death, the second death. Why is this so hard to accept?

Johann,

You are basically addressing, without using the phrase, the concept of "proof texting." I do not believe it is always expedient to post entire chapters of Ellen White or the Bible, just to have so-called "context." Interestingly, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and Ellen White all used texts in very much the same manner as you accuse me of doing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, if Jesus were to cease sustaining the forces of nature they would cease to do anything or, more likely, they would cease to exist. The idea that nature can empower itself to act independent of Jesus is unbiblical. And the idea that evil angels can empower nature to act is unbiblical. Yes, they can, when Jesus permits it, manipulate nature to wreak havoc - but they cannot empower nature to act. Only Jesus can empower nature to act. Jesus cannot, therefore, withdraw His protection and allow nature to empower itself to act. Nor can He withdraw His protection and allow evil angles to empower nature to act. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

The idea that sin can empower itself to punish and kill sinners is unbiblical. Sin is not a sentient being. Sin (cherished, spoken, or acted out) is the transgression of the law. The results of sinning can lead to sorrow, sickness, and first death - but it cannot punish or kill sinners in the lake of fire. The fact sinners sin with impunity is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners. The fact sinners would live forever if they had free access to the tree of life is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

Jesus said: Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelled in Jerusalem?

What happened MM? Did Jesus fall asleep and forget to hold up the tower? What you are saying had interesting implications for free will. You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it. Therefore, if a rock fall off a mountain and kills you, it must be God's will. In the Lord's prayer, one of the things to pray for is that God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Why is that? It is because God's will is NOT being done on earth as it is in Heaven.

The idea that evil angels can make nature do disasters is unbiblical? That statement is unbiblical. Have you read the book of Job? Where did the great wind come that killed Job's children. I suppose you believe that the "fire of God" was fire sent by God. Evil angels did not cause any of this as you say, but the Bible record speaks differently.

MM: "The fact sinners sin with impunity is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners". Mike - this is very naive statement on sin. Speaking of the apostasy at Peor in Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 41, EGW writes about sex sins, "Nature has affixed terrible penalties to these crimes--penalties which, sooner or later, will be inflicted upon every transgressor. It is these sins more than any other that have caused the fearful degeneracy of our race, and the weight of disease and misery with which the world is cursed. Men may succeed in concealing their transgression from their fellow men, but they will no less surely reap the result, in suffering, disease, imbecility, or death." Is it God that inflicts the penalties, or is it sin itself that causes the disease, misery, degeneracy, imbecility and death? SIN.

I think you picture sin as a legal problem, a breaking of the rules. Perhaps you should listen to the lecture series titled, "The Science of Sin and Salvation", on going weekly now. The past presentations are available online. The link has been posted here on the forums. The videos are here: http://is.gd/sss2013.

Maybe I should reword it somewhat:

If I were tempted to kill somebody and I went ahead and did it, and was sentenced to death by the judge for killing somebody, and was actually executed, who executed me?

APL, it appears you have misunderstood what I posted.

What you are saying is, that sin is breaking the rules, God has his rules, and if you break them, God will execute you. God is the judge. The problem with this is that it ignores so much of scripture which depicts sin as not a legal problem, but an illness problem. If you have a terminal disease due to "transgressions" and the doctor (judge) says, you are going to die and you do, who killed you?

We know that the act of killing someone is just a symptom. You don't even need to kill someone literally to be a murderer. All you need to do is want to kill them. 1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Now you have a problem. Who is a murderer? Someone who hates is just as much a murderer as one how as fully acted out the deed, and is deserving of the same sentence. So you do not have to kill someone to be guilty. We look at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

The truth is that our outward behavior is just a symptom of what is going on inside. If you treat symptoms and not the underlying disease, you will never cure anyone.

Christ had our sickness.
Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

Psalms 103:1-4 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases; 4 Who redeems your life from destruction; who crowns you with loving kindness and tender mercies;

Notice the Hebrew chiasm. [A]Who forgives all your iniquities; [A']Who heals all your diseases.

The majority of Jesus's ministry was healing. Physical, but also spiritual healing.

Care to enlighten us then?