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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158282
11/13/13 03:31 PM
11/13/13 03:31 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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The idea that nature can empower itself to act independent of Jesus is unbiblical. And the idea that evil angels can empower nature to act is unbiblical. Yes, they can, when Jesus permits it, manipulate nature to wreak havoc - but they cannot empower nature to act. Only Jesus can empower nature to act.
Could you tell us what "empower" means to you. You seem to have different definitions of words from what most of us have and it is dawning on me that this is another such case. The fact sinners sin with impunity is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners. The fact sinners would live forever if they had free access to the tree of life is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners.
Is it that sinners are cut off from the Source of life what causes them to perish?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158284
11/13/13 03:44 PM
11/13/13 03:44 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, address each point: 1. If Jesus were to cease sustaining the forces of nature they would cease to do anything or, more likely, they would cease to exist.
2. The idea that nature can empower itself to act independent of Jesus is unbiblical.
3. And the idea that evil angels can empower nature to act is unbiblical.
4. Yes, they can, when Jesus permits it, manipulate nature to wreak havoc - but they cannot empower nature to act.
5. Only Jesus can empower nature to act.
6. Jesus cannot, therefore, withdraw His protection and allow nature to empower itself to act.
7. Nor can He withdraw His protection and allow evil angles to empower nature to act.
8. The idea that sin can empower itself to punish and kill sinners is unbiblical.
9. Sin is not a sentient being.
10. Sin (cherished, spoken, or acted out) is the transgression of the law.
11. The results of sinning can lead to sorrow, sickness, and first death - but it cannot punish or kill sinners in the lake of fire.
12. The fact sinners sin with impunity (do not immediately suffer and die the second death) is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners.
13. The fact sinners would live forever if they had free access to the tree of life is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158286
11/13/13 04:26 PM
11/13/13 04:26 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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MM - I gave you a response. You say I misrepresent you. Why repeat what you say misrepresents you? Please show me where I misrepresent you.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158288
11/13/13 04:51 PM
11/13/13 04:51 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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For example, you wrote, "You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it." This doesn't address my points. Plus you overlooked the rest. Please address each point one by one. Thank you.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158290
11/13/13 04:53 PM
11/13/13 04:53 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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For example, you wrote, "You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it." This doesn't address my points. Plus you overlooked the rest. Please address each point one by one. Thank you. OK - but HOW have I misrepresented you????
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#158293
11/13/13 06:17 PM
11/13/13 06:17 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Could you tell us what "empower" means to you. You seem to have different definitions of words from what most of us have and it is dawning on me that this is another such case. By "empower" I mean enable. The clay body of Adam could do nothing until Jesus breathed into it the breath of life. Similarly nature can do nothing without Jesus employing it. He is the life. He causes it to act. When He permits evil angels to use nature to wreak havoc it is Jesus who enables nature to act accordingly. He also regulates how much damage they can cause. Is it that sinners are cut off from the Source of life what causes them to perish? The first death happens because 1) sinners do not have access to the tree of life, and 2) they either get injured, get sick, or grow old. When they die the breath of life returns to Jesus. Sinners will suffer and die the second death because 1) Jesus resurrects them, and 2) they burn up in the lake of fire. The breath of life returns to Jesus.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158294
11/13/13 06:20 PM
11/13/13 06:20 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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For example, you wrote, "You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it." This doesn't address my points. Plus you overlooked the rest. Please address each point one by one. Thank you. OK - but HOW have I misrepresented you???? That's not what I believe. But more importantly, please address each point. Thank you.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158296
11/13/13 07:28 PM
11/13/13 07:28 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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For example, you wrote, "You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it." This doesn't address my points. Plus you overlooked the rest. Please address each point one by one. Thank you. OK - but HOW have I misrepresented you???? That's not what I believe. But more importantly, please address each point. Thank you. Please in the response I have already made show me where I am wrong.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158300
11/14/13 01:05 AM
11/14/13 01:05 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Address each point, please. We can come back to your point.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158303
11/14/13 02:54 AM
11/14/13 02:54 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Address each point, please. We can come back to your point. Please respond to the post I already made that you did not like.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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