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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158285
11/13/13 05:23 PM
11/13/13 05:23 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL, please address each and every point I made. Thank you. 1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers.
2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus.
3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it.
4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.
5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts.
6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).
7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities.
8. Jesus never once commanded divorce.
9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.
10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical.
11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword.
12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.
13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.
14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded? MM - I gave you a detailed response above. You said I misrepresented you. Now you want another response. HOW did I misrepresent you above. Please explain.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158287
11/13/13 05:46 PM
11/13/13 05:46 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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For example, you responded, "Nature is not a kicking time bomb." And then you proceeded to answer as if that's what I wrote or meant. Plus you overlooked the rest.
Please respond individually to each point. Thank you.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158289
11/13/13 05:51 PM
11/13/13 05:51 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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For example, you responded, "Nature is not a kicking time bomb." And then you proceeded to answer as if that's what I wrote or meant. Plus you overlooked the rest.
Please respond individually to each point. Thank you. I'm sorry - you are not being clear. How was my response misrepresenting what you said? You said nature is not a ticking time bomb. Yet, there are many situations where nature is primed to explode. Are you saying it is God that is making sink holes collapse - intentionally? I used the Biblical story of the tower of Siloam. Did God intentionally, purposefully, and willingly cause the tower to fall and kill 18 people?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158295
11/13/13 07:30 PM
11/13/13 07:30 PM
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SDA
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I didn't say "Nature is not a ticking time bomb." I said, "Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers." I further clarified by saying, "Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus."
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158297
11/13/13 08:31 PM
11/13/13 08:31 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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I didn't say "Nature is not a ticking time bomb." I said, "Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers." I further clarified by saying, "Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus." Call me dense, but I'm not seeing the difference. I have given a response where potential energy is stored up in nature, waiting to be released. Do you agree or not? It is not helpful is you do not address what I have already posted (#158254).
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158301
11/14/13 02:07 AM
11/14/13 02:07 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Please address each point one by one. Things will clear up.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158302
11/14/13 03:53 AM
11/14/13 03:53 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Please address each point one by one. Things will clear up. Please respond to the response I've already made.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158309
11/14/13 03:02 PM
11/14/13 03:02 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,475
Midland
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So are you saying that what He does Himself and what He permits evil angels to do can be the same thing?
When something like a typhoon happens, how does one determine whether Jesus did it Himself or whether He permitted evil angels to do it?
Kland, in practicality it doesn't matter which means Jesus uses to His accomplish His purposes - either way He is in control. Nothing happens without His command or permission. Yes, unfortunately I was afraid you might say that it doesn't matter. So this would mean that with the same act, one would not know if evil caused it or if Jesus caused it. But that it doesn't really matter, because Jesus intended it to happen. So in light of that, you would say that when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy the lives of thousands of people, one should not let it bother them. Jesus intended it, Jesus caused it, or He caused evil angels to cause it, and the result is as He intentionally intended. One should not have any sympathy or give aid to such suffering ones as that would be refuting Jesus' plans and intent. Therefore, one should take a non-nonchalant attitude and say, guess they must have had it comin' to 'em. Or they are being used as an example. I'm sure not going to help them, because if I refute and make null His plans, I could be "punished" for that. Best to forget and get on with my life and hope He doesn't do anything like that to me. But, I best not "hope", for that would be questioning Him and I might be punished for that. How could you not come to that conclusion?
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158312
11/14/13 06:33 PM
11/14/13 06:33 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Kland,
1. Do you believe Jesus is in control?
2. Do you think things happen without His permission?
3. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please?
I need to know your answer to these questions. Then I'll address your comments and questions.
Thank you.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158313
11/14/13 06:52 PM
11/14/13 06:52 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Nature is not a kicking time bomb. You name, "Mountain Man". Have you climbed any of the volcanos in the Cascades? Have you ever been confronted witht he problem of warming temperatures and icefalls? No ticking time bomb there, is there? Have you seen maps of the Karsts of the Arabian peninsula? There can be huge caverns where a 747 can easily fit into, and yet only have a thin roof covering the cavern. Hiking in such areas can result is disaster if the roof gives way. Sink holes around the country are not ticking time bombs? What happens, does God just deside to let the hole collapse destroying property and taking lives? In the story of Job, was it God that caused the wind that killed Jobs children or was it God? It must be God under your view. Nothing happens without Jesus causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Nature cannot act without Him. Evil angels cannot manipulate nature without His permission. Volcanoes cannot explode without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Sink holes cannot collapse without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Animals act by instinct - - OK - Where did the instinct come from? Did God program lions to kill prey? Did God create fiery serpents with their terrible venom? God permitting does mean God caused. The story of Job should make this clear. Job was giving permission to Satan to treat Job nearly as he wished. Satan could have made Job the ruler of the world! The evil done to Job was not God's will. Jesus gave evil angels permission to afflict Job within the limits He set and enforced. He worked to ensure they did not exceed His limits. Did God give rules for divorce and polygamy? YES. Does this in fact prove that God desires and approves of these things? NO. Is killing and adultery both violations of God's law? Yes. They are not entirely different realities. Jesus never commanded divorce or polygamy. Do you agree? But He did on many, many, many occasions command capital punishment and war. Do you agree? God told the people how HE was going to GIVE the land to them. They did not comply. Did God abandon them? NO. There is no reason they should have ever needed to fight. You were in the military, is that right? Jesus never commanded them not to wage war. He said, "I will drive them out . . . and you will drive them out." Humanity and divinity combined worked to occupy the Promised Land. "Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive."
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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