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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158328
11/15/13 04:25 AM
11/15/13 04:25 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
However, the CTr is a paraphrase. You know that, right?

Are you referring to this note regarding CTr:

Quote:
IN HER TIME, WORDS SUCH AS “HE,”“MAN,”“MEN,” AND “MANKIND” WERE ACCEPTED AS GENERIC TERMS THAT INCLUDED BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. TODAY THIS IS NOT SO COMMON. THUS, WITHOUT MAKING ANY CHANGE IN MRS. WHITE’S THOUGHT, THIS DEVOTIONAL BOOK USES GENDER-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE.

Please compare the original passages with CTr passages posted above:

Quote:
The power of Christ, the crucified Saviour, to give eternal life, should be presented to the people. We should show them that the Old Testament is as verily the gospel in types and shadows as the New Testament is in its unfolding power. The New Testament does not present a new religion; the Old Testament does not present a religion to be superseded by the New. The New Testament is only the advancement and unfolding of the Old. Abel was a believer in Christ, and was as verily saved by His power as was Peter or Paul. {6T 392.1}

The instruction given in the Old Testament Scriptures is as verily the word of Christ as the instruction in the New Testament. Christ was as verily man's Redeemer in the days when the Old Testament was written as He was when He appeared in the form of humanity. He gave those of ancient Israel just as favorable an opportunity of working out their own salvation as He did those who listened to His words. {12MR 301.1}

The proclamation of the first, second, and third angel's messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols. The New Testament is the substance. One is as essential as the other. The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular. {1MR 43.1}

"The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New."

"The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular."

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158329
11/15/13 04:33 AM
11/15/13 04:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - I am not interested in learning what you believe from Herb Montgomery. I hope you don't mind. I prefer to hear it from you. I would also appreciate you addressing the points.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158330
11/15/13 04:42 AM
11/15/13 04:42 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
However, the CTr is a paraphrase. You know that, right?

Are you referring to this note regarding CTr:

Quote:
IN HER TIME, WORDS SUCH AS “HE,”“MAN,”“MEN,” AND “MANKIND” WERE ACCEPTED AS GENERIC TERMS THAT INCLUDED BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. TODAY THIS IS NOT SO COMMON. THUS, WITHOUT MAKING ANY CHANGE IN MRS. WHITE’S THOUGHT, THIS DEVOTIONAL BOOK USES GENDER-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE.

Please compare the original passages with CTr passages posted above:

Quote:
The power of Christ, the crucified Saviour, to give eternal life, should be presented to the people. We should show them that the Old Testament is as verily the gospel in types and shadows as the New Testament is in its unfolding power. The New Testament does not present a new religion; the Old Testament does not present a religion to be superseded by the New. The New Testament is only the advancement and unfolding of the Old. Abel was a believer in Christ, and was as verily saved by His power as was Peter or Paul. {6T 392.1}

The instruction given in the Old Testament Scriptures is as verily the word of Christ as the instruction in the New Testament. Christ was as verily man's Redeemer in the days when the Old Testament was written as He was when He appeared in the form of humanity. He gave those of ancient Israel just as favorable an opportunity of working out their own salvation as He did those who listened to His words. {12MR 301.1}

The proclamation of the first, second, and third angel's messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols. The New Testament is the substance. One is as essential as the other. The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular. {1MR 43.1}

"The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New."

"The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular."

OK:
Herod and the wicked authorities killed the Just One, but Christ never killed anyone, and we may attribute the spirit of persecution—because men and women want liberty of conscience—to its origin, Satan. He is a deceiver, a liar, a murderer, an accuser of the brethren. He loves to see human misery. He exults in distress, and as we view the cruel persecutions of those who would obey God according to the dictates of their own consciences, we may know that this is the mystery of iniquity. . . . {CTr 248.4}

And Jesus is a killer, persecutor, causes misery? NO.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158331
11/15/13 04:42 AM
11/15/13 04:42 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: APL
I have stated repeatedly, that God did give instructions for war. Have I denied that?

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus commanded Moses not to execute capital punishment or to wage war?

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158332
11/15/13 04:43 AM
11/15/13 04:43 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
MM:Nothing happens without Jesus causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Nature cannot act without Him. Evil angels cannot manipulate nature without His permission. Volcanoes cannot explode without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Sink holes cannot collapse without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it.

QUESTION - Is God's WILL being acted out on earth as it is in heaven? ANSWER: NO. Is God responsible for all the evil that happens? I would guess you would say yes. I do not believe that God commands or causes Storms to kill, maim, destroy. There is God's permissive will. But how does this work? IF you do not believe in free will, then God is indeed responsible for everything that happens. But if you believe in free will, then while God is the force the enables everything, He is in no way responsible for the choices that we make. He did put limits on Satan's dealing with Job. He did put limits in Satan's ability to corrupt life as Genesis 3 states. Of course in the great controversy with Christ, Satan can call foul in not allowing his alterations to play out. Christ came to give us the clearest evidence of not only God's Character, but also the results of sin. Sin was allowed to play out in the person of Jesus Christ, and it was sin that killed Christ.

MM: Jesus never commanded divorce or polygamy. Do you agree?

Have you read the book of Ezra recently? Read chapters 9 and 10.

But He did on many, many, many occasions command capital punishment and war. Do you agree?

I have stated repeatedly, that God did give instructions for war. Have I denied that? What I have denied is that this is God's perfect will. It is not . God never indended the people to personally fight. They were suppose to do their part. They were not to be idle. Even with Jericho, they were supposed to shout.

The problem is that I think that you are like Green and asygo in that you reject the clearest picture of God that we have, and that is Jesus Christ. It is true, that in many various ways God has communicated to us via the prophets. But in these last days, He has spoken to us by His son, who is the EXACT image of God, Hebrews 1:1-3. The Father has testified this fact, "This is my son, my chosen: hear ye him". Luke 9:35. Jesus testimony is greater that John's. We are to look to Christ to understand and unlock the OT. If you reject the view of God as revealed by Christ's life on this earth, you are rejecting the truth about God. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.

John 5:36-43
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And you will not come to me, that you might have life.
41 I receive not honor from men.
42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.

This is an important warning. If you reject the picture of God as revealed by Jesus, you are rejecting the truth! Jesus is THE LIGHT and the LIFE.

With that in mind, what did Jesus say to do to your enemies? If hungry, feed them. If they hit you, turn the other cheek. YOU are to love your enemy! Is this a new commandment? Yes and no. In the OT, your neighbor was believed to be your fellow Israelite. Jesus said that all men are you neighbor.

Jesus is THE ANSWER. Reject Christ, you reject God.

MM - Address reply which covers a number of the points to have asked. You have not responded to the points I've made. Why?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158333
11/15/13 04:48 AM
11/15/13 04:48 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, please address each and every point I made. Thank you.

1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers.
2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus.
3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it.
4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.
5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts.
6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).
7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities.
8. Jesus never once commanded divorce.
9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.
10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical.
11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword.
12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.
13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.
14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded?

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158334
11/15/13 04:51 AM
11/15/13 04:51 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
NOTE: I reposted the above post before I realized you posted your most recent post above.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158335
11/15/13 04:55 AM
11/15/13 04:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - Address reply which covers a number of the points to have asked. You have not responded to the points I've made. Why?

I have been pleading with you to address my points before you posted the above. I feel like you are unwilling to do so. I have no problem with that. But it doesn't seem fair.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158336
11/15/13 05:09 AM
11/15/13 05:09 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - Address reply which covers a number of the points to have asked. You have not responded to the points I've made. Why?

I have been pleading with you to address my points before you posted the above. I feel like you are unwilling to do so. I have no problem with that. But it doesn't seem fair.
I have replied to many of your points. Please, read the reply and comment. See post 158254 and 158260.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158338
11/15/13 02:37 PM
11/15/13 02:37 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,515
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
I have stated repeatedly, that God did give instructions for war. Have I denied that?

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus commanded Moses not to execute capital punishment or to wage war?
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus commanded Moses not to allow divorce?

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