Jesus is in control, but He doesn't cause disease, death, and destruction.

Jesus permits some things to happen, but permitting is not the same thing as intending, planning, causing, or wanting them to happen.

Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc however they please. Consider Job. However, Jesus doesn't direct them, intend for them to wreck havoc, nor wants them to. They are not doing His will or bidding. Good is not in cahoots with evil.

APL, although I am disappointed your are unwilling to address the points in a succinct, summary manner I accept your decision.

Please answer my question first. I will be happy to answer yours afterward.

I've done a little searching here on the forums. Before I joined in, these same questions have been raised! Several have given good answers. Yet, you don't seem to have changed a bit in your view. Is there any more point in adding a repeat of that which you have rejected?

I think I see the problem. Green, asygo, MM, all view scripture as equal. You all view that the OT is a correct, clear representation of God. That Jesus's 33 years of life adds little to our understanding of the God. EGW however says differently. She writes, "The great object that brought Christ to the earth was to reveal the Father." If the Father had been clearly revealed, why did Jesus need to come to correctly reveal the Him? The Father is exactly like the man Jesus Christ revealed Him to be, Hebrews 1. Jesus warned us that if we reject the picture of God that He came to reveal, then we reject God, John 5. EGW writes, "Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!" {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 8} And she is speaking about His life on earth. She writes, "The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes." This was the work of Christ as a man on this planet. She finishes this article with this: "When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men." {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

Therefore, if we reject the picture of God as the man Christ Jesus revealed God, we are rejecting God. "Amazed at his dullness of comprehension, Christ asked with pained surprise, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?" Is it possible that you do not see the Father in the works He does through Me? Do you not believe that I came to testify of the Father? "How sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Christ had not ceased to be God when He became man. Though He had humbled Himself to humanity, the Godhead was still His own. Christ alone could represent the Father to humanity, and this representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years." {DA 663.5}

EGW: Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the express image of the invisible God, was alone able to reveal the character of the Deity to mankind. ... Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. Isaiah 61:1, A.R.V., margin; Luke 4:18; Isaiah 61:2, A.R.V. Quoted {MH 422.2}

"Love your enemies," He bids us; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44, 45; Luke 6:35; Matthew 5:45; Luke 6:36. ... Luke 1:78, 79. {MH 423.1}

"Ye also have seen me, and believe not" (John 6:36)

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Could the answers to both questions be the same?

1. In what sense is Jesus in control?
2. Why does Jesus permit "some" things to happen? Also, please cite things that happened that Jesus didn't permit.
3. In what sense does Jesus "use His enemies as instruments to punish" sinners?

Are you unwilling to answer my question? If so, no problem.

I promised to address these points after you answered my questions. You upheld your end of the deal. Thank you. Now I will uphold mine. I've added numbers to your original post to make it easier to respond to:

1. Unless Jesus tells us personally, we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it. But we can know with absolute certainty He could have prevented it, but for reasons that make sense to Jesus He allowed it.

2. Jesus works to ensure everything plays out according to His plan and purpose. Nothing happens without His involvement.

3. Understanding that Jesus is on control does not prevent us from feeling sad. Jesus laid down His own life on the cross, for which I am very thankful; however, it does not stop me from feeling sad.

4. Things play out accordingly to His plan and purpose.

5. It depends on the situation. Jesus is honored and glorified when Christians rally in support of people hit by war or natural disasters. That is part of His plan and purpose (among many other desired outcomes). In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief.

No one has clearly, concisely, succinctly addressed the points I listed. It appears you are unwilling, too.


You are grossly mistaken.


We are talking about two different dispensations. The character of the Godhead, as revealed through Jesus' teachings and interactions with men and angels in the OT and the NT, is unchanging. In the OT Jesus was working through the nation of Israel to demonstrate truth, love, mercy, and justice; and in the NT Jesus was (and still is) working through the church to demonstrate the same attributes. Accordingly, the rules of engagement are different.

I don't think I am grossly mistaken. asygo and Green have stated that we learn little of God's character from Jesus's life as a man. The NT states that Jesus is THE true revelation of God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The promises to Abraham is the same promise that we live under today! Abraham was as much a Christian as any true Christian today.

I have made comments on your list, but you still ignore them. Why?

Reading past history, you did the same thing to "Tom" going back a number of years. John 5 is very telling.