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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15850
10/29/05 05:40 PM
10/29/05 05:40 PM
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OP
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Here's what's vague:
-- walk in the Spirit
As opposed to walking in the flesh, our old habits of sin.
-- walk in the mind of the new man
As opposed to walking in the mind of the old man, our former habits of sin.
-- partake of the divine nature
The aspect of God that empowers us to resist the unholy suggestions produced by our fallen flesh nature.
-- abide in Jesus
Making Jesus first, last, and best in our life.
All these things are similar, but slightly different. We develop Christlike traits of character by beholding Jesus, and by resisitng sin, and by imitating the example of Jesus.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15851
10/29/05 05:58 PM
10/29/05 05:58 PM
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quote:
MM: I agree. But we are not free to exercise our willpower to have holy thoughts, feelings and behaviour until we are born again. Conversion and rebirth are necessary before we can benefit from the plan of salvation, that is, as it pertains to righteousness and true holiness and salvation.
Tom: I think we cannot exercise our will to serve God apart from the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is constantly with us, so in practical terms anyone who wanted to serve God would be able to, because the Holy Spirit would provide the needed help as necessary. Similar comments apply for behavior.
MM: Now that you and I agree on the function and purpose of human willpower, as it relates to righteousness and true holiness, what can we learn about John's theory regarding the "spirit"? As a faculty, how does it help us become more and more like Jesus? How does it differ from willpower?
In light of this topic on Romans 7.
The fundamental difference is the exercising of willpower before conversion (which is a religious activity that has no power to do what is good). This amounts to will power being used to overcome temptation, resulting in an unholy life.
When willpower is used to control thoughts, feelings or behavior; the result will be an unholy life. When willpower is used to overcome temptation the result will be an unholy life. This other wise is called will worship. It is the state of the unconverted man and is what Paul was talking about in Romans 7; and MM’s first paragraph above which I quoted agrees with that. (Since Paul was describing his condition of the time when he did not know how to perform that which is good)
When one speaks about the will and willpower one needs to understand what it is that the power of the will is; and what it is that the will can govern. The will cannot at anytime directly govern, our thoughts, feelings, or in reality behavior. It is the spirit that governs these. Whatever spirit one is of; such will be his thoughts, feelings and behavior. Granted, the will is part of the spirit, but it is not the spirit.
MM asked numerous times if the mind is the same as the spirit or heart. I will try to make this clear in light of Romans 7. Confusions arise when there is a deprived understanding of the difference between spirit and mind. Paul, in Romans 7; 14-25 establishes and makes that distinction by telling us that he served the law of God with his mind, but was still under the law of sin death because he did not yet discover the way of the spirit which he unveils in Romans 8.
Now please pay close attention to the following which I have before posted.
quote:
Often times in conversation mind and spirit could be interchanged depending on the context and aspect. However they are fundamentally and functionally different; different in their government and powers. Basically speaking mind deals with learned knowledge, values, principles, purposes etc. These have been received, accepted and validated by the spirit of man. The spirit largely consists of will and faith. Before anything becomes ours in the mind, it needs to be accepted (given authority and validity) by our spirit. The highest authority in man is his spirit. The spirit does not have to be subject, and is not supposed to be subject to whatever is in the mind. It can override it invalidate it, or investigate things unknown. But the spirit must have a source. In other words, something is trusted (whether reasonable or not, known or unknown. Yet that something is chosen by the will. Whatever is the source is master over us.
The will certainly is the dominant function of the heart or spirit; however the power of the will is faith which is the other dominant function of the heart or spirit. Yet faith cannot be but where the will puts it, nevertheless without faith the will would have no power. There are other aspects to the heart or spirit but suffice this for now
So, the spirit largely consists of will and faith. The power of the will is “faith”, and that is the only power that the will directly governs. Without faith, the will has no power. We can choose who to have faith in; whom to believe. Now faith is not a set of beliefs or doctrines one assents to. Those would be beliefs or information in the mind, which would be religion and not spirit. Faith in this context is the “gate” or “door” (the network security controlling authority of what passes in or out). It is obvious therefore that whatever faith authorizes; permits through, becomes part of us. But “faith” is governed by the will, and that is the only thing that the will directly governs. Christ spoke of it this way:
- Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This door is the door of faith (the faith of Jesus).
… continued in next post
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15852
10/29/05 06:09 PM
10/29/05 06:09 PM
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... continued from previous post It is important to understand that whatever is trusted; wherever our faith is, such will be the spirit. A carnal spirit is the natural state of fallen man. Why so? Simply put, faith was removed from the spirit of God and placed in one’s own judgment; the natural avenues of information to the mind which man is left with; the five senses would be the resulting source. Note, it is not the mind which is the source, but the five senses, and these are only inputs for whatever they happen to be directed towards. So the source determines the nature of our spirit. So while before the fall, the spirit of God was the source for man’s spirit, governing all the other inputs to the mind; after the fall, the physical became the source for the spirit, hence the carnal spirit and mind. Now in these avenues of senses, one may favor one or several over the other. So you can have the “intellectual”, “sensual”, “religious”, “temporal”, etc; nevertheless it is all carnal. So, what is the spirit of man? The spirit takes the attributes of whatever we have chosen to have faith in. Yet once faith is placed, the spirit dominates the being, and the will and faith are part of it. And we know and see no different then our spirit perceives it. Now as Tom said, the Lord stepped in immediately to put enmity into this equation, so that we may be saved from this state. So, the spirit of the Lord strives with man’s spirit, the law (knowledge) establishes controversy in the mind, and the gospel is preached (the avenue of hearing) to reach us by the word of faith. quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
In conversion, man, having heard the word of faith, exercises his will to believe God thus placing his faith in God, making God the source, hence subverting (breaking faith with) all things within himself, making them subject to God, resulting in the indwelling of God by his spirit in our spirit. Thus by faith the source is changed; that from henceforth faith is to permit and authorize (we will trust and accept as valid input) only that which is from God, severing faith with the old man, resulting in the union of our spirit with God’s spirit. Hence we no longer live in (do not trust) our understanding but the Lord becomes our understanding, and righteousness and life. Hence the new birth means a new spirit. Our spirit is then subject to His Spirit making us his children, and the fruit of the spirit is ours.
- Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15853
10/30/05 02:39 PM
10/30/05 02:39 PM
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OP
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John, you refer to the Holy Spirit as the "spirit of God". Or, that's what I'm assuming you mean. Since you write it in the lower case, that is, spirit instead of Spirit, it makes me wonder and need to ask – Do you believe in the Trinity?
The reason it is important to me is it will help me understand your thoughts on the spirit. If the Holy Spirit to you is merely the mind of God, the essence of God, the presence of God, or whatever, rather than a real personal Being, the third Person of the Heavenly Trio, then it will explain some questions I have.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15854
10/30/05 04:32 PM
10/30/05 04:32 PM
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It makes no difference whether you put a capital S or a small s. There is no conflict between the mind of and the spirit of the Father or of the Son or Holy Spirit. When people hold the “Holy Spirit” as something that differs from or conflicts with the spirit or Spirit of God, then I agree there is a problem.
The question is whether your understanding of spirit or Spirit is what Paul was talking about in Romans 8.
Please do not change the topic here. It would be nice if you could comment your questions directly to specific statements I made and how you think they apply to Romans 7 and 8.
[ October 30, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15855
10/31/05 02:31 PM
10/31/05 02:31 PM
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Okay. Your unwillingness to answer my question suggests an answer. At any rate, I'm pretty sure we disagree as to the meaning of "spirit" in the Bible and in the SOP. And it is quite obvious we disagree as to the meaning of Romans 7:17-20.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15856
11/01/05 03:43 AM
11/01/05 03:43 AM
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The difference appears to be over Romans 1:1-Romans 15:32
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15857
10/31/05 11:16 PM
10/31/05 11:16 PM
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quote:
And it is quite obvious we disagree as to the meaning of Romans 7:17-20.
The sad part is that you wish to hold on to the position that the converted man remains in bondage to sin and does not know how to do good, and thereby deny the power of God to deliver one from the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15858
11/01/05 06:41 PM
11/01/05 06:41 PM
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OP
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John, please quote me where I posted I believe a converted person remains in bondage to sin and cannot do good. Thank you.
While you're searching for that quote I'll restate my position: Romans 7:17-20 is talking about the sin that is in our sinful flesh nature. It can tempt us to sin, but it cannot commit a sin. That's all it can "do". In Christ, the new man resists the unholy suggestions produced by his fallen flesh nature. He also reproduces the character traits of Christ.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15859
11/01/05 07:53 PM
11/01/05 07:53 PM
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MM, John was not saying that you stated that a converted man would remain in bondage, but that this is your position. That is, if you hold to the view that Paul was speaking of a converted man in the last part of Romans 7, the logical conclusion is that converted people remain in bondage, this conclusion being evident by way of the verses which John quoted:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
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