APL, I will address the list for you, the way I think you believe. I may not get everything right. Please confirm and/or correct as necessary. Thank you.

1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is self-acting. It can and does act according to fixed laws. It does not rely on Jesus to act.

2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. False.

3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. True. But nature is not solely dependent on Jesus to act. It can act without Him. Evil angels can also empower nature to act without Jesus' involvement.

4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly. False.

5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. False. Nature can also act on its own without Jesus' involvement.

6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit). False. Nature can act without Jesus. And evil angels can empower nature to act.

7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. False. They are nearly identical issues.

8. Jesus never once commanded divorce. False. Jesus has commanded divorce.

9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war. True. But He only did so because Moses mistakenly assumed killing is right.

10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. False. He wanted to do it all by Himself without help from the Jews.

11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. It is implied because He wanted to do it Himself.

12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell. They're not rejoicing and praising God for the work of evil angels. They are rejoicing and praising God because He is allowing sin to run its natural course.

13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why. Zero culpability because He will not interfere with their freedom to do and choose.

14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded? No, evil angels are not free to wreak havoc at will. Yes, Jesus works to protect the innocent.

As you said to me, you misrepresent me.

How did we get on that conversation here again?

APL, I'm surprised you think I have misrepresented your view of the points listed above. I was pretty certain I got it right. It is turning out harder than I thought it would to understand your point of view. Would you mind addressing the points listed above in a direct, clear, concise manner? It would be mighty helpful.

APL, it seems like you believe:

1. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

2. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

3. Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because Moses mistakenly believed killing is right.

Because certain individuals have an agenda to get everyone to believe as they do, and seems to be the one track they follow no matter what the topic.

The problem is that this issue has polarized -- as most issues will when things are placed in an "either/or" framework.

I believe that this world is a theater in the universe showing what sin does to human minds and emotions, to nature, and to the well being of life. God has to allow things to move from cause to effect to show what the effect of sin is. He doesn't cause sin nor does he cause the effect of sin. It's because people have given themselves up to sin that we have all the terrible things going on in this world -- from deranged people doing diabolical things, to nature going berserk because of the balances of nature being manipulated by humans.

However, when we take that reality of the great controversy which shows the effects and end results of sin, and insist that God NEVER puts a decided end to the sin, a whole different set of problems arise in which the person taking that stand must re-interpret vast amounts of scripture.

We just witnessed one of the deadliest typhoons on the Philippians --

Why did it happen?

No, I don't think God caused it.

The extreme weather is the result of people manipulating the balances of nature. Geo engineering.

http://cosmicconvergence.org/?p=3789

"Planet Earth has been besieged by many and diverse scientific experiments over the past one hundred years. The quantum leap in applied science and technology has “precipitated” a literal explosion of top secret and highly classified operations conducted in the atmosphere, throughout the planetary surface, as well as deep within the Earth’s crust. However, none comes close to the degree of round-the-clock damage inflicted on the biosphere as the DARPA-sponsored program of geo-engineering."


Rev. 11:18 ..Thy wrath is come, and the time ... that thou shouldest ... destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is the greed and ungodly intellect of mankind that causes hellish situations. Sinful mankind has set the world on a course of self destruction. It's only because God sends his angels to hold back the destructive winds of strife in order to give people a chance to accept salvation, that we still have a livable planet!
But once sin is unleashed to show it's full effect, the earth will head straight for self destruction. But before the lights go out for planet earth, Christ will intervene and deliver His people and destroy those who destroy the earth with their sinful programs.

So in one sense APL and kland are correct that sin is self destructive -- but it's not nature "deciding" anything, it is the manipulation of nature by sinful mankind. But just before conditions get so extreme that no life would be left on earth, Christ does intervene and delivers His people. That deliverance will also result in the death of the despisers of God's law and grace.

You see -- we need to accept both positions.
1. Sin reveals it's self destructive nature
2. God has in the past rooted out those who have fully given themselves up to sin because to allow them to live would mean their influence would rob many honest people of eternal life. And in the future God will put a decided end to sin. And everyone (even those who have lost out) will recognize that God is just in doing so.

Thank you for clarifying your position that it is a "problem" to "view scripture as equal" and to view the Old Testament as giving "a correct, clear representation of God."

Let it be made clear here that your position is in error. Let none mistake the truth on this point, for God indeed revealed Himself through the Old Testament. Are the testaments both equally "scripture"? Are they equal scripture?



It is clear that APL does not preach full gospel. He has neglected the Old Testament teachings, and elevated the New Testament as being superior. He has failed to read the truths about Christ that are to be found only in the Old Testament, without which the gospel is incomplete.



What scriptures did Jesus Himself teach from?



God had already made His truths "clear and plain" in the writings of the Old Testament. He came to make them clear again, because they had been made obscure by the scholars of the day.



Let none be deceived by a partial Gospel. Both of the Testaments have unique truths about God to offer, and both are equally scripture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I see you don't mind going off topic, which is OK by me.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What scripture is Timothy speaking about? The Old Testament. I think his comment certainly can apply to the New as well, but the New was not yet compiled in his day.

Doctrine, reproof, and instruction work many ways. In school and had good teachers and I had bad teachers. I learned from each. Some the good, I learn better techniques and how to do things. From the bad, I learn what not to do, do not repeat the same errors. We see a lot of errant people in the OT. Do we want to repeat these?

Christ is revealed in the Old Testament. The religion of the OT is the same as the NT. You seem to imply that I disgard the OT which is not the case. Christ's life, death and resurrection is revealed in the OT. Paul, and devout Jew, a Pharisee, may have memorized most of the OT "knew" the scriptures. Was his picture of God correct? He went about persecuting Christians based on his understanding of the OT.

Christ came to reveal the Father. The error is to now read the OT and neglect the NT. Green says I do not preach the full gospel and quoted Christ's Object Lessons to prove this. He quoted from the chapter, "Things New and Old" which I have just reread. Why did you stop at paragraph 1 of page 127? You should have read the next paragraph. As EGW says repeatedly, it is the prophesies of the OT which have high value. Israel was to reveal the character of God to the world. But did they? NO. The blessings they received brought no blessing to the world. Of Israel God declared: "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jeremiah 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. The OT is a warning to us today to not be like Israel.

EGW writing of Christ's mission on earth:Where do we learn of Satan misrepresenting the character of God? Where do we see the needless exactions and traditions placed on the law of God? Where do we see God as represented as severe, exacting, revengeful and arbitrary? Where do we see the very attributes that belong to the character of Satan placed on God? Both the OT and NT. All scripture if profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and instruction in righteousness.

Good, APL. I'm glad to hear that you do not, in fact, reject the truth that Christ was revealed in the Old Testament.

Do you yet reject that there are aspects of God revealed in the Old Testament which are not repeated (i.e revealed) in the New Testament?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.