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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158446
11/17/13 08:28 PM
11/17/13 08:28 PM
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OP
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APL, I will address the list for you, the way I think you believe. I may not get everything right. Please confirm and/or correct as necessary. Thank you.
1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is self-acting. It can and does act according to fixed laws. It does not rely on Jesus to act.
2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. False.
3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. True. But nature is not solely dependent on Jesus to act. It can act without Him. Evil angels can also empower nature to act without Jesus' involvement.
4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly. False.
5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. False. Nature can also act on its own without Jesus' involvement.
6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit). False. Nature can act without Jesus. And evil angels can empower nature to act.
7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. False. They are nearly identical issues.
8. Jesus never once commanded divorce. False. Jesus has commanded divorce.
9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war. True. But He only did so because Moses mistakenly assumed killing is right.
10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. False. He wanted to do it all by Himself without help from the Jews.
11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. It is implied because He wanted to do it Himself.
12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell. They're not rejoicing and praising God for the work of evil angels. They are rejoicing and praising God because He is allowing sin to run its natural course.
13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why. Zero culpability because He will not interfere with their freedom to do and choose.
14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded? No, evil angels are not free to wreak havoc at will. Yes, Jesus works to protect the innocent. APL, I'm surprised you think I have misrepresented your view of the points listed above. I was pretty certain I got it right. It is turning out harder than I thought it would to understand your point of view. Would you mind addressing the points listed above in a direct, clear, concise manner? It would be mighty helpful. I have given you several online sources which are fairly aligned with my thoughts. Invest some time on them if you are unclear. Do I need to provide the URLs again?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158453
11/18/13 03:23 AM
11/18/13 03:23 AM
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And do you Green, accept what EGW says about "How different appeared their meaning!" when revealed by Christ than are understood in the Old Testament? APL, You are making a false contrast. You appear to be saying that the Old Testament portrays Christ in a very different light than that of the New Testament. You would be as incorrect as were the Pharisees. Mrs. White is not saying what you think she is saying. As for the context, you need to read it again. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158454
11/18/13 03:31 AM
11/18/13 03:31 AM
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MM, Do you know for a fact that the great deluge was directly caused by God? Or could have been that God choose not to prevent it? Same question to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Summarizing Ulrike's statement: sin is destructive, but not destructive enough... There is a strange abandonment of principle, a lowering of the standard of morality; the sins are fast increasing which caused the judgments of God to be poured upon the earth in the Flood and in the destruction of Sodom by fire.--5T 601 (1889).
The inhabitants of Sodom had passed the limits of divine forbearance--"the hidden boundary between God's patience and His wrath." The fires of His vengeance were about to be kindled in the vale of Siddim. {PP 159.2}
The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: "We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." The strangers whom Lot had endeavored to protect, now promised to protect him, and to save also all the members of his family who would flee with him from the wicked city. ... Who is "we" in the passage above? It is the angels whom Lot entertained. Had Lot entertained evil angels or holy angels? Holy angels, angels of God. Then God's own angels were sent to destroy the city, and they did His bidding. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158460
11/18/13 04:56 AM
11/18/13 04:56 AM
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OP
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MM, Do you know for a fact that the great deluge was directly caused by God? Or could have been that God choose not to prevent it? Same question to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Summarizing Ulrike's statement: sin is destructive, but not destructive enough... There is a strange abandonment of principle, a lowering of the standard of morality; the sins are fast increasing which caused the judgments of God to be poured upon the earth in the Flood and in the destruction of Sodom by fire.--5T 601 (1889).
The inhabitants of Sodom had passed the limits of divine forbearance--"the hidden boundary between God's patience and His wrath." The fires of His vengeance were about to be kindled in the vale of Siddim. {PP 159.2}
The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: "We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." The strangers whom Lot had endeavored to protect, now promised to protect him, and to save also all the members of his family who would flee with him from the wicked city. ... Who is "we" in the passage above? It is the angels whom Lot entertained. Had Lot entertained evil angels or holy angels? Holy angels, angels of God. Then God's own angels were sent to destroy the city, and they did His bidding. Blessings, Green Cochoa. And why do you not include what happens when God forbearance is reached? Shall I quote it for you - again? The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. And we know what God's wrath is from Romans 1. And see it described over and over in the OT. HOW Green, do God's own angels destroy? God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}
God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8} Is there any more evidence on Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158464
11/18/13 05:23 AM
11/18/13 05:23 AM
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Lot went into Sodom rich; he left with nothing, led by an angel's hand, while messengers of wrath waited to pour forth the fiery blasts that were to consume the inhabitants of that highly favored city and blot out its entrancing beauty making bleak and bare a place that God had once made very beautiful. {CH 270.1}
Abraham was tempted to believe that he might be under a delusion. In his doubt and anguish he bowed upon the earth, and prayed, as he had never prayed before, for some confirmation of the command if he must perform this terrible duty. He remembered the angels sent to reveal to him God's purpose to destroy Sodom.... {PP 148.3}
And now the last night of Sodom was approaching. Already the clouds of vengeance cast their shadows over the devoted city. But men perceived it not. While angels drew near on their mission of destruction, men were dreaming of prosperity and pleasure. The last day was like every other that had come and gone. Evening fell upon a scene of loveliness and security. .... {PP 157.4}
The inhabitants of Sodom had passed the limits of divine forbearance--"the hidden boundary between God's patience and His wrath." The fires of His vengeance were about to be kindled in the vale of Siddim. {PP 159.2}
The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: "We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." The pen of inspiration is clear, APL. The angels who spoke to Lot said "WE will destroy this place." APL, which kind of angels did Lot harbor in his home that night? evil angels? or holy angels? You decide. And yet, I will show you one more passage. You will not believe it either, for you will reinterpret it according to your preconceived idea. But for the sake of others, I present it, for it is abundantly clear which angels accomplished the destruction of Sodom. ... But for the angels of God, they would all have perished in the ruin of Sodom. The heavenly messengers took him and his wife and daughters by the hand and led them out of the city. {PP 160.1}
Here the angels left them, and turned back to Sodom to accomplish their work of destruction. Another--He with whom Abraham had pleaded--drew near to Lot. In all the cities of the plain, even ten righteous persons had not been found; but in answer to the patriarch's prayer, the one man who feared God was snatched from destruction. The command was given with startling vehemence: "Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed." Hesitancy or delay now would be fatal. To cast one lingering look upon the devoted city, to tarry for one moment from regret to leave so beautiful a home, would have cost their life. The storm of divine judgment was only waiting that these poor fugitives might make their escape. {PP 160.2} And still one more passage that is abundantly clear regarding Who is in charge of this destruction. On the night prior to their destruction, the cities of the plain rioted in pleasure and derided the fears and warnings of the messenger of God; but those scoffers perished in the flames; that very night the door of mercy was forever closed to the wicked, careless inhabitants of Sodom. God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. The great mass of the world will reject God's mercy, and will be overwhelmed in swift and irretrievable ruin. But those who heed the warning shall dwell "in the secret place of the Most High," and "abide under the shadow of the Almighty." His truth shall be their shield and buckler. For them is the promise, "With long life will I satisfy him, and show him My salvation." Psalm 91:1, 4, 16. {PP 167.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158474
11/18/13 03:40 PM
11/18/13 03:40 PM
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1. So this would mean that with the same act, one would not know if evil caused it or if Jesus caused it.
2. But that it doesn't really matter, because Jesus intended it to happen.
3. So in light of that, you would say that when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy the lives of thousands of people, one should not let it bother them.
4. Jesus intended it, Jesus caused it, or He caused evil angels to cause it, and the result is as He intentionally intended.
5. One should not have any sympathy or give aid to such suffering ones as that would be refuting Jesus' plans and intent. Therefore, one should take a non-nonchalant attitude and say, guess they must have had it comin' to 'em. Or they are being used as an example. I'm sure not going to help them, because if I refute and make null His plans, I could be "punished" for that. Best to forget and get on with my life and hope He doesn't do anything like that to me. But, I best not "hope", for that would be questioning Him and I might be punished for that. How could you not come to that conclusion? I promised to address these points after you answered my questions. You upheld your end of the deal. Thank you. Now I will uphold mine. I've added numbers to your original post to make it easier to respond to: 1. Unless Jesus tells us personally, we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it. But we can know with absolute certainty He could have prevented it, but for reasons that make sense to Jesus He allowed it. 2. Jesus works to ensure everything plays out according to His plan and purpose. Nothing happens without His involvement. 3. Understanding that Jesus is on control does not prevent us from feeling sad. Jesus laid down His own life on the cross, for which I am very thankful; however, it does not stop me from feeling sad. 4. Things play out accordingly to His plan and purpose. 5. It depends on the situation. Jesus is honored and glorified when Christians rally in support of people hit by war or natural disasters. That is part of His plan and purpose (among many other desired outcomes). In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief. Sounds like you pretty much agreed with my assessment. Especially I note: "Nothing happens without His involvement". (Unless you are defining 'involvement' in an unusual way)
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158476
11/18/13 04:15 PM
11/18/13 04:15 PM
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"In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief". Kind of addresses, but doesn't the following: Le 10:6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.
Here, your "fire from the LORD" devoured them and Aaron and his sons were told not to mourn or show sadness. Soooo, if you are saying God intentionally and directly destroyed them with fire, and "we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it", whether "it" be disease, destruction, death, etc., then the only conclusion we can come to is not to worry, don't let it bother us, die and let die. Intense thunderstorms and tornadoes swept across the Midwest, causing fatalities, injuries, extensive damage in several central Illinois communities, Please pass the mashed potatoes. Dozens of tornadoes and intense thunderstorms swept across the Midwest on Sunday, leaving at least six people dead and unleashing powerful winds that flattened entire neighborhoods, flipped over cars and uprooted trees.
May I have some more peas, please? An elderly man and his sister were killed when a tornado hit their home in the rural southern Illinois community of New Minden, said coroner Mark Styninger. A third person died in Washington, while three others perished in Massac County in the far southern part of the state,
These rolls sure are good! May I have another? By mid-afternoon there were reports of 59 tornadoes, 128 reports of damaging winds and 36 reports of large hail. The storm paths threatened major cities including Chicago, Cinncinatti, Detroit and Louisville, Kentucky.
Just how many tornadoes hit was unclear. Although about 80 reports of tornadoes had come in as of Sunday night, Bill Bunting of the National Weather Service's Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Okla., said the actual number will likely be in the 30 to 40 range.
I think I missed the corn. Could someone please pass it in my direction? At OSF Saint Francis Medical Center in nearby Peoria, spokeswoman Amy Paul said 37 storm victims had been treated, including eight with injuries ranging from broken bones to head injuries.
I can't wait for dessert! Thank you MM, for easing our consciences. I feel much better now. It's not that things work out for His good, but "play out accordingly to His plan and purpose". Must be some reason He specifically chose and did this to 'em. Just hope nothing like that happens here. Ooops! I didn't mean to say hope, as that would mean I thought it was bad and don't want to seem ungrateful and not enjoying the wonderful display of mighty power or the Bossman might take offense and make an example out o' me. Storms caused extensive damage in several central Illinois communities. Washington, a community of more than 15,000 people, appeared to have been particularly hard hit.
So be it. Anyone for taking a walk to enjoy the sunshine?
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158482
11/18/13 04:35 PM
11/18/13 04:35 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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And do you Green, accept what EGW says about "How different appeared their meaning!" when revealed by Christ than are understood in the Old Testament? APL, You are making a false contrast. You appear to be saying that the Old Testament portrays Christ in a very different light than that of the New Testament. You would be as incorrect as were the Pharisees. Mrs. White is not saying what you think she is saying. As for the context, you need to read it again. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Green - read it again. "appeared". Many statements are made that makes it "appear" that God is has destructive as you say He is. But the truth is revealed in Christ. Christ explains the the OT.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158484
11/18/13 04:40 PM
11/18/13 04:40 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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MM, Do you know for a fact that the great deluge was directly caused by God? Or could have been that God choose not to prevent it? Same question to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Summarizing Ulrike's statement: sin is destructive, but not destructive enough... There is a strange abandonment of principle, a lowering of the standard of morality; the sins are fast increasing which caused the judgments of God to be poured upon the earth in the Flood and in the destruction of Sodom by fire.--5T 601 (1889).
The inhabitants of Sodom had passed the limits of divine forbearance--"the hidden boundary between God's patience and His wrath." The fires of His vengeance were about to be kindled in the vale of Siddim. {PP 159.2}
The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: "We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." The strangers whom Lot had endeavored to protect, now promised to protect him, and to save also all the members of his family who would flee with him from the wicked city. ... Who is "we" in the passage above? It is the angels whom Lot entertained. Had Lot entertained evil angels or holy angels? Holy angels, angels of God. Then God's own angels were sent to destroy the city, and they did His bidding. Blessings, Green Cochoa. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. HOW do the angels hurt the earth and the sea? The same as was done to Sodom and Gomorrah, Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: kland]
#158487
11/18/13 05:17 PM
11/18/13 05:17 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
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1. So this would mean that with the same act, one would not know if evil caused it or if Jesus caused it.
2. But that it doesn't really matter, because Jesus intended it to happen.
3. So in light of that, you would say that when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy the lives of thousands of people, one should not let it bother them.
4. Jesus intended it, Jesus caused it, or He caused evil angels to cause it, and the result is as He intentionally intended.
5. One should not have any sympathy or give aid to such suffering ones as that would be refuting Jesus' plans and intent. Therefore, one should take a non-nonchalant attitude and say, guess they must have had it comin' to 'em. Or they are being used as an example. I'm sure not going to help them, because if I refute and make null His plans, I could be "punished" for that. Best to forget and get on with my life and hope He doesn't do anything like that to me. But, I best not "hope", for that would be questioning Him and I might be punished for that. How could you not come to that conclusion? I promised to address these points after you answered my questions. You upheld your end of the deal. Thank you. Now I will uphold mine. I've added numbers to your original post to make it easier to respond to: 1. Unless Jesus tells us personally, we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it. But we can know with absolute certainty He could have prevented it, but for reasons that make sense to Jesus He allowed it. 2. Jesus works to ensure everything plays out according to His plan and purpose. Nothing happens without His involvement. 3. Understanding that Jesus is on control does not prevent us from feeling sad. Jesus laid down His own life on the cross, for which I am very thankful; however, it does not stop me from feeling sad. 4. Things play out accordingly to His plan and purpose. 5. It depends on the situation. Jesus is honored and glorified when Christians rally in support of people hit by war or natural disasters. That is part of His plan and purpose (among many other desired outcomes). In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief. Sounds like you pretty much agreed with my assessment. Especially I note: "Nothing happens without His involvement". (Unless you are defining 'involvement' in an unusual way) Please compare your assessment with my response. It should be obvious I believe very much different than your summary.
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