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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15840
10/25/05 01:42 PM
10/25/05 01:42 PM
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OP
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Again, I agree. God continues to woo us through the third person of the Godhead, and will continue to do so until we commit the unpardonable sin.
Now that you and I agree on the function and purpose of human willpower, as it relates to righteousness and true holiness, what can we learn about John's theory regarding the "spirit"? As a faculty, how does it help us become more and more like Jesus? How does it differ from willpower?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15841
10/25/05 10:17 PM
10/25/05 10:17 PM
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We become more and more like Jesus be beholding Him. As we perceive that God's character is just like what Jesus Christ in His humanity revealed it to be, then we are transformed into that same image.
God's ways are not man's way. His way of thinking, of governing, of righteous are all different than ours. When we accept His thoughts, His vision, His rightouesness as our own, then out spirit is subject to His, and our will will be in harmony with His. This is my understanding of John's ideas.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15842
10/26/05 09:05 AM
10/26/05 09:05 AM
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quote:
God's ways are not man's way. His way of thinking, of governing, of righteousness are all different than ours. When we accept His thoughts, His vision, His righteousness as our own then our spirit is subject to His, and our will, will be in harmony with His. This is my understanding of John's ideas.
That was a lovely succinct statement, Tom. Well put and thank you. ![[Thank You & Welcome]](graemlins/thanks.gif) ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15843
10/26/05 09:42 AM
10/26/05 09:42 AM
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quote:
MM: Now that you and I agree on the function and purpose of human willpower, as it relates to righteousness and true holiness, what can we learn about John's theory regarding the "spirit"? As a faculty, how does it help us become more and more like Jesus? How does it differ from willpower?
This however has not been answered in light of this topic on Romans 7.
The fundamental difference is the exercising of willpower before conversion (which is a religious activity that has no power to do what is good). This amounts to will power being used to overcome temptation, resulting in an unholy life.
While the converted man exercises his will to believe God thus placing his faith in God, hence subverting all things within himself making them subject to God, resulting in the indwelling of God by his spirit in our spirit. This amounts to our will being used to take hold of that which is good, resulting in a holy life.
(sorry this is brief, but my time is up)
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15844
10/26/05 03:02 PM
10/26/05 03:02 PM
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John, I'm still not 100% certain I understand how you are using the word "spirit". Is it the same as, or different than, the words "mind" and/or "heart"? And, how does it relate to Rom 7?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15845
10/26/05 09:23 PM
10/26/05 09:23 PM
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John has said quite a number of times that he views "heart" and "spirit" as synonymns, and that "mind" is something different, namely the processing of information. He has also explained his view of Romans 7 quite a few times. For example, he wrote this: quote:
In Romans 7 Paul is relating to us the progression of his experience leading up to conversion. In Romans 8 he tells us of the victory in Christ after conversion.
In Romans 7 Paul speaks of the time when he tried hard to do that which is right by the law, but had not yet discovered the way of righteousness. He could not discover the means of doing that which is good. The Law of sin and death was still at work in him. Paul is not talking about temptations. He is talking about searching for a way to do that which is good. He is describing to us how he discovered his ‘modus operandi’ (the way fallen man functions). He is describing it in different stages of realization.
First comes the knowledge (by the law) of that which is good, which he in mind agrees and accepts, but his spirit is still subject to the flesh (his modus operandi is still the law of sin and death) so he finds no means of doing that which is good, no matter which way he tries. Then he begins to relate his realization of the difference between the functions of his spirit, mind, and flesh, and his choice which to identify with. But he still has not discovered how to function so as to live that good which he approves of. (his modus operandi is still the law of sin and death, his spirit is still subject to his flesh) Then he begins to realize the laws that govern his modus operandi and in verse 23 he establishes it. He cries out for deliverance, and in verse 25 establishes separation. Then in the beginning of Chapter 8, reveals that his modus operandi is now fundamentally changed and that his spirit is no longer subject to the flesh or his mind, but to the spirit of God. Thus the law of sin and death is overcome by the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Now he is able to do that good which before he could not. In Romans 8 he speaks of his discovery of the way and shares it with us, Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Now the spirit of God governs (is source for) his spirit, his spirit governs (is source for) his mind, which in turns governs his body.
This should answer your question as to how "spirit" and "mind" relate to Romans 7.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15846
10/28/05 02:34 AM
10/28/05 02:34 AM
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quote:
Now the spirit of God governs (is source for) his spirit, his spirit governs (is source for) his mind, which in turns governs his body.
Tom, the way John is using the word "spirit" here reminds me of willpower, not heart.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15847
10/28/05 02:55 AM
10/28/05 02:55 AM
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I had the same response, and asked him this very question, and he responded with the clarifications which I cited, explaining that the spirit (or heart) is compristed largely of the will and faith. He has examplained his thoughts in detail.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15848
10/27/05 03:13 PM
10/27/05 03:13 PM
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Okay, then if you are understanding his view correctly, then I guess I disagree with it. I did not believe the heart governs the mind. I believe the hierarchy of the higher powers is as follows:
1. Will
2. Mind
3. Heart
4. Body
As we consent and cooperate with the Holy Spirit, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as we partake of the divine nature, as we abide in Jesus – as we do all these things, then, and only then, are we able to use our faculties of mind and body to 1) resist the unholy suggestions produced by our fall flesh nature, and to 2) reproduce the lovely character of Christ. The byproduct of the hierarchy mentioned above is Christlikeness, character worthy of heaven and fit for eternity.
I also believe the Bible and the SOP use the words "spirit", "mind" and "heart" interchangeably.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15849
10/27/05 05:27 PM
10/27/05 05:27 PM
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It seems to me the Spirit of Prophesy speaks of the higher and lower powers of the mind in a similar way to how John refers to "spirit" (or heart) and "mind". It's a challenging subject to communicate on because there's a bit of a paradox in that there is a think which houses another thing which is both dependent upon the thing housing it and controls it. That is, the mind houses the will (there is no will without the mind, or brain) yet the will governs the mind; or to use John's language, the mind houses the spirit, yet the spirit governs the mind. (I'm assuming John would agree with this; he's never actually said this, so far as I'm aware). I have some questions on the following: quote:
As we consent and cooperate with the Holy Spirit, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as we partake of the divine nature, as we abide in Jesus – as we do all these things, then, and only then, are we able to use our faculties of mind and body to 1) resist the unholy suggestions produced by our fall flesh nature, and to 2) reproduce the lovely character of Christ. The byproduct of the hierarchy mentioned above is Christlikeness, character worthy of heaven and fit for eternity.
A lot of these phrases seem vague to me. Here's what's clear to me, in the hierarchy:
-- consents and cooperate with the Holy Spirit
Here's what's vague:
-- walk in the Spirit
-- walk in the mind of the new man
-- partake of the divine nature
-- abide in Jesus
You write "all these things" implying they are all different and distinct. Do you see the four things I mentioned as vague in this way (different and distinct)? If so, how are they different? What exactly does each item mean?
Please don't mention that these terms are used in Scripture and in the Spirit of Prophecy, as I'm well aware of this. I'm not clear what these items mean to you personally. Personally I think they are all synonymns. I also think you have left out the most important item, in terms of how one develops a Christ-like character, but before commenting on the most important item, I'll wait for your response, as you may have this left out item in mind implicity in one of the definitions of the above phrases.
Thanks in advance for your response.
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