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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15860
11/02/05 04:01 PM
11/02/05 04:01 PM
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OP
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Southwest USA
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Paul is simply saying that the ability to do good is not within us, we need a power above and outside of us to do good. And, so long as we dwell in a body that hosts sinful flesh nature we are, in one sense, in captivity. In 2 Cor 5:1-9 Paul implies that our present body is a prison house creating a great gulf between us and Jesus.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15861
11/02/05 06:27 PM
11/02/05 06:27 PM
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I agree with these principles. I think they apply to a born-again person as much as to an unconverted person. Given that these principles are general principles which are always true, it is not necessary to believe that Paul was born again in Romans 7 to arrive at this conclusion. That is, I believe Paul is referencing the time when he was unconverted when he wrote these words, just like the Spirit of Prophesy states. However, I agree with the principles you are suggesting, and agree that this is what Paul had in mind when he wrote Romans 7 (but he was remembering his pre-conversion experience when he wrote it). So, giving my self as an example, it is not necessary to believe that Paul was converted in Romans 7 (of course he was converted when he wrote it, but was not remember his experience as one who was converted) and yet believe the principles you have described.
I had a professor at the seminary whom I respect a lot, Dr. Richard Davidson, who struggled with this passage a lot. His conclusion was that for Paul's principle point, it didn't matter whether he was converted or not. I tend to agree with him.
That is, fundamentally Paul was giving expression to a principle, which is as you state, the ability to do good is not within us. Secondarily it makes more sense to me to view that Paul was unconverted. First of all, the flow of Romans works much better this way. Secondly it fits the language Paul used better, especially "Oh wretched man that I am! ..." (which is difficult to put into the status of converted Paul, who never used language like this in any of the other of his epistles). Finally it agrees with the Spirit of Prophecy's perspective, which is that Romans 7 is speaking of pre-conversion Paul.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15862
11/03/05 02:41 AM
11/03/05 02:41 AM
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Ontario
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MM, I did not respond the previous post because Tom had so aptly responded. quote:
MM: Paul is simply saying that the ability to do good is not within us, we need a power above and outside of us to do good. And, so long as we dwell in a body that hosts sinful flesh nature we are, in one sense, in captivity. In 2 Cor 5:1-9 Paul implies that our present body is a prison house creating a great gulf between us and Jesus.
This is using one truth to deny another truth.
Paul is not “simply saying” that the ability to do good is not in us (because of our body). Rather the truth that he brings out is that the inability to do good lies with the condition or allegiance of our spirit/heart. But, to combine 2 Cor. 5:1-9 with Romans 7 is entirely out of context. The tabernacle of 2 Cor. 5:1-9 as you call captivity has nothing to do with the “captivity of the law of sin”.
In Romans 7 Paul is not dealing with being removed from the body but is dealing with the problem of the things done “in the body” and how he may be set free from that law of sin and death while in the body. In Romans 8 he speaks of being set free by the law of the spirit of life in Christ while in the body. The power we need to live victoriously is not physics but spirit. About this he also warns in 2 Cor. 5:10.
The captivity of sin may not be placed on the body but on the spirit; likewise the freedom. As far as a great gulf, Jesus said: “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.”
Romans 7 is describing the condition of a religious unconverted man; while Romans 8 describes the condition of the born again man.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15863
11/03/05 02:35 PM
11/03/05 02:35 PM
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OP
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quote:
First of all, the flow of Romans works much better this way. Secondly it fits the language Paul used better, especially "Oh wretched man that I am! ..." (which is difficult to put into the status of converted Paul, who never used language like this in any of the other of his epistles). Finally it agrees with the Spirit of Prophecy's perspective, which is that Romans 7 is speaking of pre-conversion Paul.
1. The flow of Romans begins in chapter 5. Because of Adam we are born with a sinful flesh nature that wars against us and the Spirit. In chapter 6 he describes a born again believer as someone who has crucified the old man and is dead to sin, free from sin, and uses their faculties of mind and body to serve God in righteousness and true holiness. In chapter 7 he explains the cause and effect relationship between the origin and existence of post-conversion tempting thoughts and feelings. In chapter 8 he goes on to say that even Jesus was born with a sinful flesh nature, and that, therefore, it is not a sin to be tempted from within so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
2. The expression "Oh wrethced man that I am" refers to sinful flesh nature. Post-conversion Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners. Everyone has a desire to be free of the unholy clamorings of fallen flesh nature. It's not an admission of guilt or evidence of sinning.
3. The SOP does not attempt to interpret Rom 7. Borrowing an expression does not count as a commentary or explanation. She did not clearly indicate if Paul was converted or unconverted when he used the expression she quoted. Even unconverted people grow tired of being constantly bombarded with the unholy suggestions produced by fallen flesh nature.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15864
11/03/05 02:45 PM
11/03/05 02:45 PM
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OP
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John, I agree with Tom. It is a huge bummer having to do life in this body, a body that houses a fallen nature, a nature that continually generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings. This body is a prison house of sin. Jesus dwelt in the same type of prison while He walked this planet as a human. It is true, Jesus made it possible for us to resist the temptations produced by sinful flesh nature, but it is still an unpleasant existence - compared to what awaits us in heaven and the new earth.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15865
11/05/05 04:48 AM
11/05/05 04:48 AM
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1. The flow of Romans begins in chapter 5. Because of Adam we are born with a sinful flesh nature that wars against us and the Spirit. This is not the focus of Romans 5. Romans 5 deals with the grace of God, which abounds to all men, even before the know Christ. The love of God and grace are the theme. The focal point of the chapter is Rom. 5:12-18. It's not the fact that man is born with a sinful nature that Paul is dealing with, but the fact that the human race was lost in Adam and redeemed in Christ. This is a bit of digression, but worth mentioning I thought.2. The expression "Oh wrethed man that I am" refers to sinful flesh nature. Post-conversion Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners. Everyone has a desire to be free of the unholy clamorings of fallen flesh nature. It's not an admission of guilt or evidence of sinning. "Oh wretched man that I am" refers to Paul's inability to obey the law, not knowing Christ. If you look at the Spirit of Prophecy's reference to this verse, you will see that only for Paul, but in every use of the phrase, she always has in mind an unconverted person. Do a search on her use of the phrase, and check it out for yourself.3. The SOP does not attempt to interpret Rom 7. Borrowing an expression does not count as a commentary or explanation. She did not clearly indicate if Paul was converted or unconverted when he used the expression she quoted It's obvious that Paul is unconverted in what she writes. Consider:
quote:
Paul the apostle . . . longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and he cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Rom. 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
It's pretty amazing to me to not recognize this experience as the experience of someone longing to be converted. It's makes me wonder what you think conversion is, if it's something different than what is described here.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15866
11/06/05 01:59 AM
11/06/05 01:59 AM
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Like I posted before, it is at the moment of conversion that the burdened soul cries out - Jesus shall deliver me from the body of this death (referring to the constant barrage of sinful suggestions produced by fallen flesh nature).
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15867
11/06/05 02:57 AM
11/06/05 02:57 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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If it is at the moment of conversion the burdened soul cries out, "Oh wretched man that I am" then at the moment the soul is unconverted. Hence Paul in Romans 7 is uncoverted.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15868
11/06/05 11:11 PM
11/06/05 11:11 PM
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OP
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And so we disagree again, my friend.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15869
11/07/05 01:44 AM
11/07/05 01:44 AM
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Ontario
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Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! (present tense exclamatory declarative)
who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (future tense interrogative)
Thus the person of Romans 7:24 is still not delivered from the law of sin and death. The person of Romans 7:24 is not crying out "Jesus!" but "who?".
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (present tense qualifying)
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (past tense affirmative enduring to the present)
The person of Romans 8:1-2 has been delivered from the law of sin and death. He no longer finds himself in a wretched state wondering how and who will deliver him.
NO LONGER WRETCHED!!! Halleluyah.
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