This discussion arose around a quote in volume 8 of the testimonies, to which asygo said, He did not know that the testimonies were indeed the primary source of the quote. And if he had read the quote in context, then he would have known that what I said was indeed correct. Shall I quote the section in the primary source?

Lot chose Sodom for his home because he saw advantages to be gained there from a worldly point of view. But after he had established himself, and grown rich in earthly treasure, he was convinced that he had made a mistake in not taking into consideration the moral standing of the community in which he was to make his home. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 4}

The dwellers in Sodom were corrupt; vile conversation greeted his ears daily, and his righteous soul was vexed by the violence and crime which he was powerless to prevent. His children were becoming like these wicked people; for association with them had perverted their morals. Taking all these things into consideration, the worldly riches he had gained seemed small, not worth the price he had paid for them. His family connections were extensive, his children having married among the Sodomites. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 5}

The Lord's anger was finally kindled against the wicked inhabitants of the city. The angels of God visited Sodom to bring forth Lot, that he should not perish in the overthrow of the city. They bade him bring his family, his wife, and the sons and daughters who had married in wicked Sodom, and they told him to flee from the place; "for," said the angels, "we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 6}

And Lot went out and warned his children. He repeated the words of the angel, "Up, get thee out of this place, for the Lord will destroy this city!" But he seemed to his sons-in-law as one who mocked. And the daughters were influenced by their husbands. They were well enough off where they were. They had great possessions, and could not believe it possible that beautiful Sodom, in a rich and fertile country, would be destroyed by the wrath of a sin-avenging God. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 7}

Lot returned sorrowfully to the angels, and repeated the story of his failure. Then the angels commanded him to arise, and take his wife, and the two daughters who were yet in his house and leave the city. But Lot was sad; the thought of leaving his children and his wife, for she refused to go without them, almost broke his heart. They would all have perished in the terrible ruin of Sodom, had not the Lord, in his great mercy, sent his angels to the rescue. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 8}

Lot was paralyzed by the great calamity about to occur; he was stupefied with grief at the thought of leaving all that he held dear on earth. But as he lingered, the angels of God laid hold upon his hand, and the hands of his wife and two daughters, and brought them out of the city, and charged them to flee for their lives, neither to look behind them, nor to stay upon all the plain, but to escape to the mountains. How reluctant was Lot to obey the angel, and go as far as possible from corrupt Sodom, appointed to utter destruction. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 9}

Lot pleaded to remain; he distrusted God. Living in the wicked city had weakened his faith and confidence in the justice of the Lord. He pleaded that he could not do as he was required, lest some evil should overtake him, and he should die. Angels were sent on a special mission to save the lives of Lot and his family, but he had so long been surrounded by corrupting influences that his sensibilities were blunted, and he could not discern the works of God and his purposes; he could not trust himself in his hands to do his bidding. He was continually pleading for himself, and this unbelief caused the destruction of his wife. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 10}

She looked back to Sodom, murmuring against the dealings of God, and was changed to a pillar of salt, that she might stand as a warning to all those who disregard the special mercies and providences of Heaven. After this terrible retribution, Lot no longer dared to linger by the way, but fled into the mountains, according to the directions of the angels. The sinful conduct of his daughters after leaving Sodom was the result of wicked associations while there. The sense of right and wrong was confused in their minds, and sin did not appear as sin to them. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 11}

The case of Lot should be a warning to all those who wish to live a godly life, to separate themselves from all influences calculated to lead them away from God. {RH, November 14, 1882 par. 12}

K: So what were you trying to convey? By saying "By "empower" I mean Jesus is the source of power that enables it to act.", how is "enabling" any different than saying He created laws of physics?

M: King Saul most likely would not have killed himself if they had been successful in battle. Jesus suffered their defeat.

K: Would you be saying the philistines had no free choice in the matter?

M: During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:

1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?

2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?

3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?

A: Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New.

M: Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). And yet you insist we must define the Jesus of the OT by the Jesus of the NT. There is a disconnect here.

A: You are right - there is a disconnect.

I'd buy that. That just makes your mathematical difficulty so much the greater, considering that John speaks in terms of just the 3.5 years he witnessed Jesus' life. The world would be more than filled to include those other 27 years' worth of books to be written on Jesus' life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This discussion arose around a quote in volume 8 of the testimonies, to which asygo said, He did not know that the testimonies were indeed the primary source of the quote. And if he had read the quote in context, then he would have known that what I said was indeed correct. Shall I quote the section in the primary source?

I'd buy that. That just makes your mathematical difficulty so much the greater, considering that John speaks in terms of just the 3.5 years he witnessed Jesus' life. The world would be more than filled to include those other 27 years' worth of books to be written on Jesus' life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.