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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #158553
11/19/13 08:59 PM
11/19/13 08:59 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Here is the perfect quote to answer your questions Mt Man.

Quote:
Christ uttered against it a withering curse. “No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever,” He said. The next morning, as the Saviour and His disciples were again on their way to the city, the blasted branches and drooping leaves attracted their attention. “Master,” said Peter, “behold, the fig tree which Thou cursedst is withered away.” {DA 582.1}
Christ’s act in cursing the fig tree had astonished the disciples. It seemed to them unlike His ways and works. Often they had heard Him declare that He came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They remembered His words, “The Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” Luke 9:56. His wonderful works had been done to restore, never to destroy. The disciples had known Him only as the Restorer, the Healer. This act stood alone. What was its purpose? they questioned. {DA 582.2}
God “delighteth in mercy.” “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Micah 7:18; Ezekiel 33:11. To Him the work of destruction and the denunciation of judgment is a “strange work.” Isaiah 28:21. But it is in mercy and love that He lifts the veil from the future, and reveals to men the results of a course of sin. {DA 582.3}
The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel’s doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth. The Jews stood forth distinct from all other nations, professing allegiance to God. They had been specially favored by Him, and they laid claim to righteousness above every other people. But they were corrupted by the love of the world and the greed of gain. They boasted of their knowledge, but they were ignorant of the requirements of God, and were full of hypocrisy. Like the barren tree, they spread their pretentious branches aloft, luxuriant in appearance, and beautiful to the eye, but they yielded “nothing but leaves.” The Jewish religion, with its magnificent temple, its sacred altars, its mitered priests and impressive ceremonies, was indeed fair in outward appearance, but humility, love, and benevolence were lacking. {DA 582.4}
All the trees in the fig orchard were destitute of fruit; but the leafless trees raised no expectation, and caused no disappointment. By these trees the Gentiles were represented. They were as destitute as were the Jews of godliness; but they had not professed to serve God. They made no boastful pretensions to goodness. They were blind to the works and ways of God. With them the time of figs was not yet. They were still waiting for a day which would bring them light and hope. The Jews, who had received greater blessings from God, were held accountable for their abuse of these gifts. The privileges of which they boasted only increased their guilt. {DA 583.1}
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour’s curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. “O Israel,” the Lord says, “thou hast destroyed thyself.” Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}


So the people of Israel destroyed itself but it still took the curse of Christ to execute judgment, exactly like when Jesus closes the gates of the New Jerusalem. The curse needs to be pronounced for the curse to be inflicted.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158562
11/20/13 03:32 PM
11/20/13 03:32 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Have you answered why Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants?
I thought I had talked about it in the past. Maybe not? Maybe I thought no need since both Tom and APL have said it so well. I agree with them. But I should note that for some reason you have qualified your question with "criminals and combatants" of which I have not made such qualifications. Was that qualification on purpose?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158563
11/20/13 03:57 PM
11/20/13 03:57 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Here is the perfect quote to answer your questions Mt Man.

Quote:
Christ uttered against it a withering curse. “No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever,” He said. The next morning, as the Saviour and His disciples were again on their way to the city, the blasted branches and drooping leaves attracted their attention. “Master,” said Peter, “behold, the fig tree which Thou cursedst is withered away.” {DA 582.1}
Christ’s act in cursing the fig tree had astonished the disciples. It seemed to them unlike His ways and works. Often they had heard Him declare that He came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They remembered His words, “The Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” Luke 9:56. His wonderful works had been done to restore, never to destroy. The disciples had known Him only as the Restorer, the Healer. This act stood alone. What was its purpose? they questioned. {DA 582.2}
God “delighteth in mercy.” “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Micah 7:18; Ezekiel 33:11. To Him the work of destruction and the denunciation of judgment is a “strange work.” Isaiah 28:21. But it is in mercy and love that He lifts the veil from the future, and reveals to men the results of a course of sin. {DA 582.3}
The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel’s doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth. The Jews stood forth distinct from all other nations, professing allegiance to God. They had been specially favored by Him, and they laid claim to righteousness above every other people. But they were corrupted by the love of the world and the greed of gain. They boasted of their knowledge, but they were ignorant of the requirements of God, and were full of hypocrisy. Like the barren tree, they spread their pretentious branches aloft, luxuriant in appearance, and beautiful to the eye, but they yielded “nothing but leaves.” The Jewish religion, with its magnificent temple, its sacred altars, its mitered priests and impressive ceremonies, was indeed fair in outward appearance, but humility, love, and benevolence were lacking. {DA 582.4}
All the trees in the fig orchard were destitute of fruit; but the leafless trees raised no expectation, and caused no disappointment. By these trees the Gentiles were represented. They were as destitute as were the Jews of godliness; but they had not professed to serve God. They made no boastful pretensions to goodness. They were blind to the works and ways of God. With them the time of figs was not yet. They were still waiting for a day which would bring them light and hope. The Jews, who had received greater blessings from God, were held accountable for their abuse of these gifts. The privileges of which they boasted only increased their guilt. {DA 583.1}
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour’s curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. “O Israel,” the Lord says, “thou hast destroyed thyself.” Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}


So the people of Israel destroyed itself but it still took the curse of Christ to execute judgment, exactly like when Jesus closes the gates of the New Jerusalem. The curse needs to be pronounced for the curse to be inflicted.
And what was the "curse" - exactly how was the tree described after it died and why was it described using those terms?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158564
11/20/13 03:58 PM
11/20/13 03:58 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction.
So how do you deal with this?

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

I don't believe you had said. But have you changed your mind or do you still say,
"Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction."

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158566
11/20/13 04:34 PM
11/20/13 04:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
So the people of Israel destroyed itself but it still took the curse of Christ to execute judgment, exactly like when Jesus closes the gates of the New Jerusalem. The curse needs to be pronounced for the curse to be inflicted.

So true. Thank you for sharing. Second death is not the result of sinning - it is the result of punishment. Jesus will execute justice and judgment - not sin, not sinners, not evil angels, not nature.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158567
11/20/13 04:42 PM
11/20/13 04:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
M: PS - Have you answered why Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants?

K: I thought I had talked about it in the past. Maybe not? Maybe I thought no need since both Tom and APL have said it so well. I agree with them. But I should note that for some reason you have qualified your question with "criminals and combatants" of which I have not made such qualifications. Was that qualification on purpose?

I asked APL this question and am interested in your answer. It seems as though he believes Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals (capital punishment) and combatants (wage war) because Moses mistakenly believed killing is in accordance with God's will. However, it is possible APL believes this insight misrepresents his view. I am waiting for him to clarify his view. I have no idea what you believe.

By the way, you didn't respond to the rest of my post. Do you agree or disagree?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158568
11/20/13 04:51 PM
11/20/13 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
M: Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction.

K: So how do you deal with this? "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1} I don't believe you had said. But have you changed your mind or do you still say,
"Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction."

I'm sorry I haven't been more clear on this question. Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms. Yes, I believe there are times when circumstances force Jesus to cause disease, death, and destruction. Plenty of passages have been posted in support of this insight. However, there are times when circumstances force Jesus to command holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. Passages have also been posted in the support of this insight. And there are times when circumstances force Jesus to permit evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. The passage you posted above is one of many in support of this insight.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158571
11/20/13 05:33 PM
11/20/13 05:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

I asked APL this question and am interested in your answer. It seems as though he believes Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals (capital punishment) and combatants (wage war) because Moses mistakenly believed killing is in accordance with God's will. However, it is possible APL believes this insight misrepresents his view. I am waiting for him to clarify his view. I have no idea what you believe.
Hmmm. Maybe I don't agree if APL said this. Could you show me where he said that?

Quote:
By the way, you didn't respond to the rest of my post. Do you agree or disagree?
Not sure what you're referring to. If this: "Create = cause to exist. Empower = cause to act."
then: God created gravity. In what way, after creating gravity, did He have to "cause it to act"?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158572
11/20/13 05:37 PM
11/20/13 05:37 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction.

K: So how do you deal with this? "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1} I don't believe you had said. But have you changed your mind or do you still say,
"Yes, Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction."

I'm sorry I haven't been more clear on this question. Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms. Yes, I believe there are times when circumstances force Jesus to cause disease, death, and destruction. Plenty of passages have been posted in support of this insight. However, there are times when circumstances force Jesus to command holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. Passages have also been posted in the support of this insight. And there are times when circumstances force Jesus to permit evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. The passage you posted above is one of many in support of this insight.
So would you say Ellen White is wrong and that she should have said:

Sickness, suffering, and death are [also] work of an antagonistic power [besides God and His angels]. Satan is the destroyer [sometimes, but God other times]; God is the restorer [except when He is destroying].

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #158573
11/20/13 05:40 PM
11/20/13 05:40 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Quote:
Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms.
Which really means, given a situation, such as tornadoes, you really don't know whether evil or good caused the destruction?

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