M: I asked APL this question and am interested in your answer. It seems as though he believes Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals (capital punishment) and combatants (wage war) because Moses mistakenly believed killing is in accordance with God's will. However, it is possible APL believes this insight misrepresents his view. I am waiting for him to clarify his view. I have no idea what you believe.

K: Hmmm. Maybe I don't agree if APL said this. Could you show me where he said that?

"Create = cause to exist. Empower = cause to act." then: God created gravity. In what way, after creating gravity, did He have to "cause it to act"?

God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will. {MH 416.1}

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. {MH 416.2}

It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops. MH 416.3}

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. {MH 417.1}

M: I'm sorry I haven't been more clear on this question. Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms. Yes, I believe there are times when circumstances force Jesus to cause disease, death, and destruction. Plenty of passages have been posted in support of this insight. However, there are times when circumstances force Jesus to command holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. Passages have also been posted in the support of this insight. And there are times when circumstances force Jesus to permit evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. The passage you posted above is one of many in support of this insight.

K: So would you say Ellen White is wrong and that she should have said: Sickness, suffering, and death are [also] work of an antagonistic power [besides God and His angels]. Satan is the destroyer [sometimes, but God other times]; God is the restorer [except when He is destroying].

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

M: Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms.

K: Which really means, given a situation, such as tornadoes, you really don't know whether evil or good caused the destruction?

Why do you disagree with it? More importantly, what do you believe?

Gravity is not self-acting.

No need to insert such things in her writings. Just as you don't expect it in the passages that support the other two insights named above. For example:


Do you see a need to insert brackets in the passage above to reflect your view (the withdraw and permit principle of punishment)?

The sentence you extracted above was tied to a specific point and wasn't intended to be used indiscriminately.

Satan will work with all his deceptive power to influence the heart and becloud the understanding, to make evil appear good, and good evil. {AA 431.1}

Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences which will result from one wrong, hasty step! Our only safety is to be shielded by the grace of God every moment, and not put out our own spiritual eyesight so that we will call evil, good, and good, evil. Without hesitation or argument we must close and guard the avenues of the soul against evil. {AH 403.1}

"Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?" Malachi 2:17. Saith the word of God: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness." Isaiah 5:20. {DD 21.1}

Terrible had become the darkness of the nation that had rejected the light of truth. “The grace that bringeth salvation” had appeared; but France, after beholding its power and holiness, after thousands had been drawn by its divine beauty, after cities and hamlets had been illuminated by its radiance, had turned away, choosing darkness rather than light. They had put from them the heavenly gift, when it was offered them. They had called evil good, and good evil, till they had fallen victims to their willful self-deception. Now, though they might actually believe that they were doing God service in persecuting his people, yet their sincerity did not render them guiltless. The light that would have saved them from deception, from staining their souls with blood-guiltiness, they had willfully rejected. {GC88 229.1}

But the Lord sent His servant with another message to Saul. By obedience he might still prove his fidelity to God and his worthiness to walk before Israel. Samuel came to the king and delivered the word of the Lord. That the monarch might realize the importance of heeding the command, Samuel expressly declared that he spoke by divine direction, by the same authority that had called Saul to the throne. The prophet said, “Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” The Amalekites had been the first to make war upon Israel in the wilderness; and for this sin, together with their defiance of God and their debasing idolatry, the Lord, through Moses, had pronounced sentence upon them. By divine direction the history of their cruelty toward Israel had been recorded, with the command, “Thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.” Deuteronomy 25:19. For four hundred years the execution of this sentence had been deferred; but the Amalekites had not turned from their sins. The Lord knew that this wicked people would, if it were possible, blot out His people and His worship from the earth. Now the time had come for the sentence, so long delayed, to be executed. {PP 627.3}
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.” Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

K: I asked you to substantiate your claim. You seemed to have evaded it. What should I conclude?

M: Gravity is not self-acting.

K: Ummm.... Ummmm.... I don't think I'll bother. I think there's some underlying communications issues here.

M: Do you see a need to insert brackets in the passage above to reflect your view (the withdraw and permit principle of punishment)?

K: I'm only inserting so I can understand your view since your view does not support the statement. Or are you saying no need to insert things, because you already have when you read it? But you are ignoring the whole point of discussion of which APL has brought up numerous times. What does it mean: arsenal, weapons, kill? But then, you have demonstrated so well, that when the Bible says God slew Saul, yet elsewhere we find Saul slew himself, you mean it to mean that God caused Saul to kill himself.

M: I'm sorry I haven't been more clear on this question. Hopefully I can answer your question in no uncertain terms. Yes, I believe there are times when circumstances force Jesus to cause disease, death, and destruction. Plenty of passages have been posted in support of this insight. However, there are times when circumstances force Jesus to command holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. Passages have also been posted in the support of this insight. And there are times when circumstances force Jesus to permit evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. The passage you posted above is one of many in support of this insight.

K: You are saying that if satan personates Christ, you would have no way of knowing from the actions he does as to whether it is good or evil. I believe you would say, if have not said, that actions of themselves are not good nor evil, but only determined if we know who does them and why. Your ideas remind me of eastern type of beliefs of ying/yang type of stuff where there is no satan, only God and He creates both good and evil. Why? So that we can appreciate the good all the more. Only problem of this comparison with you is that you say there is no good or evil, only good and evil motives. Satan and God can do the exact same actions, in fact, that God causes/uses/entices/whatever satan to do things and then you call them "good".