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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158647
11/23/13 05:51 AM
11/23/13 05:51 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery.

This is not a mystery - this is a mistake.

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {5BC 1128.4}

Jones says exactly the opposite of what Ellen White says. Yet people perfer uninspired words over inspired words.


What you quote comes from "The Baker Letter". It would be good to read the whole letter.

Uninspired words? Just the opposite? Hm. In 1888, Jones and Waggoner had the strong support of EGW at the Minneapolis sessions. After the Minneapolis session Mrs. White joined A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner in carrying the message of righteousness by faith to the churches. From coast to coast they visited camp meetings, workers’ meetings, and Bible schools. In 1889 she could write: “I have never seen a revival work go forward with such thoroughness, and yet remain so free from all undue excitement.” {RH March 5, 1889) Following Minneapolis many books dealing with righteousness by faith were produced, for example, Steps to Christ and The Desire of Ages. In his book Christ and His Righteousness (1890) Waggoner suggested that Christ took sinful flesh with sinful tendencies. In the Baker Letter, EGW writes, "Not one occasion has been given in response to His manifold temptations." Waggoner agrees!

It is impossible for us to understand how Christ could, as God, humble Himself to the death of the cross, and it is worse than useless for us to speculate about it. All we can do is to accept the facts as they are presented in the Bible. If the reader finds it difficult to harmonize some of the statements in the Bible concerning the nature of Christ, let him remember that it would be impossible to express it in terms that would enable finite minds to grasp it fully. Just as the grafting of the Gentiles into the stock of Israel is contrary to nature, so much of the Divine economy is a paradox to human understanding. {1890 EJW, CHR 25.2}

Other scriptures that we will quote bring closer to us the fact of the humanity of Christ and what it means for us. We have already read that "the Word was made flesh," and now we will read what Paul says concerning the nature of that flesh: "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3, 4. {1890 EJW, CHR 26.1}

A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalms 51:5. {1890 EJW, CHR 26.2}

The following statement in the book of Hebrews is very clear on this point: For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. ["For verily not of angels doth He take hold, but He taketh hold of the seed of Abraham." Revised Version.] Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted. Hebrews 2:16-18 {1890 EJW, CHR 27.1}

If He was made in all things like unto His brethren, then He must have suffered all the infirmities and been subject to all the temptations of His brethren. Two more texts that put this matter very forcibly will be sufficient evidence on this point. We first quote 2 Corinthians 5:21: For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. {1890 EJW, CHR 27.2}

This is much stronger than the statement that He was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh." He was made to be sin. Here is the same mystery as that the son of God should die. The spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, was made to be sin. Sinless, yet not only counted as a sinner but actually taking upon Himself sinful nature. He was made to be sin in order that we might be made righteousness. So Paul says to the Galatians that "God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 4:4,5. In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." "For we have not a High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 2:18; 4:15, 16. {1890 EJW, CHR 27.3}

One more point and then we can learn the entire lesson that we should learn from the fact that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." How was it that Christ could be thus "compassed with infirmity" (Hebrews 5:2) and still know no sin? Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harbored an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. When He lay in the tomb, under the power of death, "it was impossible that he should be holden of it," because he "knew no sin." {1890 EJW, CHR 28.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158654
11/23/13 05:54 PM
11/23/13 05:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Please relate your view about Jesus' sinful flesh nature and the topic of this thread. Thank you.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158656
11/23/13 07:39 PM
11/23/13 07:39 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Please relate your view about Jesus' sinful flesh nature and the topic of this thread. Thank you.
What brings punishment...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158661
11/24/13 12:49 AM
11/24/13 12:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Answers, please. Not questions. State your position plainly and concisely. Thank you.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158678
11/24/13 08:36 AM
11/24/13 08:36 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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This argument always comes down to this element.

God is not committing murder when He executes justice.

Satan is the murderer from the beginning. He was the one who instigated all of the sin in the world, so he is the one who murdered the wicked when God executes judgment. Every single person on the other side of the wall at the second resurrection will recognize this and turn on him just before God executes final judgment and destroys the wicked for their unconfessed sins. It is not as if God has put a self destruct mechanism in the world, that when His cup of indignation is overflowing it autonomically begins to ignight.

Hell is not spontanious combustion of the wicked. There is a court that is seated, and there is a judge and jurry, and the sentence is pronounced, and the sentence is executed, and like Mountain Man has said, it is good. Righteousness does this. It is good that the unrepentant are destroyed for righteousness sake, but God does not delight in the act of execution.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158688
11/24/13 03:30 PM
11/24/13 03:30 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
This argument always comes down to this element.

God is not committing murder when He executes justice.

Satan is the murderer from the beginning. He was the one who instigated all of the sin in the world, so he is the one who murdered the wicked when God executes judgment. Every single person on the other side of the wall at the second resurrection will recognize this and turn on him just before God executes final judgment and destroys the wicked for their unconfessed sins. It is not as if God has put a self destruct mechanism in the world, that when His cup of indignation is overflowing it autonomically begins to ignight.

Hell is not spontanious combustion of the wicked. There is a court that is seated, and there is a judge and jurry, and the sentence is pronounced, and the sentence is executed, and like Mountain Man has said, it is good. Righteousness does this. It is good that the unrepentant are destroyed for righteousness sake, but God does not delight in the act of execution.
James - - Did Christ die the second death? Yes. Was Christ executed by God? No. There is your answer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158691
11/24/13 03:57 PM
11/24/13 03:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
James - - Did Christ die the second death? Yes. Was Christ executed by God? No. There is your answer.


Indeed. That is precisely where the answer is.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}


Here's the catch, and APL doesn't see the truth because he cannot fathom justice being in the same category as love. But it is true. God's justice is an act of love.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #158692
11/24/13 04:04 PM
11/24/13 04:04 PM
APL  Offline
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Green - - I have never said that God will not punish sin. The question I have repeatedly asked is HOW. When EGW speaks in plain terms on how it is done, why do you ignore it?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158693
11/24/13 04:06 PM
11/24/13 04:06 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. . {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158697
11/24/13 04:38 PM
11/24/13 04:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, how Jesus punishes sinners is plainly revealed in the Bible and the SOP. You advocate one of the ways, namely, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. However, there are several other ways:

1. Jesus employs the forces of nature.
2. Jesus uses His enemies.
3. Jesus commands holy men and angels.

King David commanded his soldiers to withdraw and permit Uriah the Hittite to perish at the hands of his enemies. Similarly, Jesus commanded His angels to withdraw and permit King Saul to be defeated in battle. King Saul committed suicide. Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

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