Tom, is John saying we will not, if we are truly converted in the spirit, be tempted? that having to labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive resisting temptation is a sign we are unconverted? a sign of sinfulness? If so, do you agree with him? Is striving against temptation, unto blood if necessary, a sign of sin?

1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Hebrews
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

SL 92, 93
"His servants ye are to whom ye obey" (Rom. 6:16). If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters" (Matt. 6:24). If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 15:57)! {SL 92.2}

MM, I don't want to speak for John. I only like to speak for others when I'm quite sure I can reproduce their thoughts accurately, and I'm not sure I can reproduce John's thoughts on this particular point, so I'm reading his posts and trying to understand his thoughts.

My own opinion is that we continue to be tempted regardless of our level of sanctification, if one wants to put it that way. Indeed, it seems to me that the more like Jesus one becomes, the more one will be tempted. Temptation increases with sanctification, as does victory over temptation.

The 144,000 will face temptation such as no other humans (save Jesus, of course), which will need a breadth of understanding of God and the principles of His government which none have had. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which is a revelation of truth (the beginning of which was in 1888, according to the Spirit of Prophecy) is for this purpose -- to prepare a people to stand in the day of God. To stand we need to know the truth.

Your point MM of this discussion on Romans 7 is that we need to be delivered from the flesh physically in order to be free from temptation. Hence saying that Romans 7 is the experience of converted souls as long as they live in this world – they do not know how to do good.

My point of this discussion on Romans 7 is that the deliverance is not from the flesh physically, but it is the deliverance from the power of and the law of sin in the flesh as per Romans 8. Thus setting the converted soul free, by the spirit, to live that which is good all the days of their sojourning here on earth.

quote:

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John, Jesus was harassed and tempted every step He took.

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Jesus was not harassed or tempted by his flesh at every step he took. His flesh was properly governed by his spirit. He was harassed by the enemy and his agents (men) to find some way of tripping him up, discourage him, snare or confuse him, according to the wisdom and power of this world.

quote:

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Tom, is John saying we will not, if we are truly converted in the spirit, be tempted? that having to labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive resisting temptation is a sign we are unconverted? a sign of sinfulness? Is striving against temptation, unto blood if necessary, a sign of sin?

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MM, you are mixing up unrelated things, at least unrelated to Romans 7; and especially unrelated to the power you give to the flesh using Romans 7. The temptations, of the flesh, of the unconverted, unborn-again, un-crucified, have nothing to do with striving against sin unto blood.

But Paul is not even talking about temptations at all in Romans 7. Paul has gone to great length in Romans 7 to describe to us how he struggled to find and discover how to do good; The effectual difference meaning conversion.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

This scripture ought not to be used to prove that sin “should easily beset us”, but rather that these should be laid aside. This admonition follows the discourse on faith, so great a cloud of witnesses, meaning that our faith should be so established so as to lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset.

Paul said that Christ "pleased not Himself." Jesus said, "I came not to do mine own will, but the will of the Father." In Christ's whole life there was a struggle of wills, and Jesus always chose to deny His own will in preference to the will of the Father.

This other will which Christ struggled against can only be the result of our fallen nature which He took upon His own sinless nature, as far as makes any sense to me. What else could the will be which Christ denied, other than the will of the flesh? It's certainly not the will of His mind, because that will was always in harmony with God's will.

There was definately a struggle in Christ's life, which involved His will. I don't see how there could be a struggle apart from Christ's taking our fallen human nature.

Sorry for rambling and repeating myself, but it's late.

Some more quotes on Romans 7:

The law revealed to Paul his defects of character; but he did not seek to abolish the law because he stood condemned before it. He said, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [home to his conscience], sin [in his character] revived, and I died. . . . Wherefore the law [that worked so sharply against the natural propensities] is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." To his quickened conscience, sin became exceedingly sinful. This is the work of the law and the Holy Spirit, that convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. {HM, October 1, 1897 par. 10}

Paul declared, "I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." The apostle recognize the claims of the law, and did not break out against it because it revealed to him his true situation. He acknowledged the likeness which it presented, but he did not say to the law, "Cleanse me, purify me." He turned at once to Calvary. He fell on the Rock Christ Jesus, and was broken. He knew that repentance which needeth not to be repented of. He understood that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified;" for it is not the province of law to save, but to condemn; not to pardon, but to convict. {ST, November 10, 1890 par. 1}

Paul's testimony of the law is: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin [the sin is in the man, not in the law]? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." Sin did not kill the law, but it did kill the carnal mind in Paul. "Now we are delivered from the law," he declares, "that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." "Was that then which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Paul calls the attention of his hearers to the broken law, and shows them wherein they are guilty. He instructs them as a schoolmaster instructs his scholars, and shows them the way back to their loyalty to God. {RH, April 5, 1898 par. 4,5}

John, I agree with Tom. Jesus inherited our internal foes. He resisted the promptings of sin generated by His sinful flesh nature. He also, as you pointed out, resisted externally generated temptations. The “motions of sin” (Rom 7:5), that is, the “deeds of the body” (Rom 8:13), the “sin that dwelleth” (Rom 7:17, 20) in us, warred within Jesus in the same way it wars within us, the way it wars against the Holy Spirit within us.

This internal warfare will continue until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one. You seem to be saying, however, that we can be free of it now, that we do not have to wait until the second coming. Did I understand you right? If so, how it this idea any different than the holy flesh movement?

LDE 268
So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.--AA 560, 561 (1911). {LDE 267.3}

Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained; and we must be aided by the refining influence of the grace of God, which will attract the mind upward and habituate it to meditate upon pure and holy things.--2T 479 (1870). {LDE 268.1}

We may create an unreal world in our own mind or picture an ideal church, where the temptations of Satan no longer prompt to evil; but perfection exists only in our imagination.--RH Aug. 8, 1893. {LDE 268.2}

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body."--2SM 33 (1901). {LDE 268.3}

2SM 32
The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). To those who have tried so hard to obtain by faith so-called holy flesh, I would say, You cannot obtain it. Not a soul of you has holy flesh now. No human being on the earth has holy flesh. It is an impossibility. {2SM 32.1}

Please note how she uses the expression of Paul in Rom 7. She uses it to prove we cannot eliminate our fallen flesh nature (i.e., our carnal mind) in this lifetime. We must maintain the good fight of faith against it until Jesus returns.

Mike,

So your opinion is that Jesus had a carnal mind?