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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158734
11/26/13 02:09 PM
11/26/13 02:09 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Yes, APL, I'm asking a serious question. You might call it a rhetorical question, but it is certainly a serious one.
I am persuaded that this discussion has done more harm than good. Would you agree? If we are both wanting to see souls saved in the kingdom, wouldn't it be advisable to at least cooperate to that end, even if that means desisting from this debate?
It is clear that no one in this discussion is changing his or her mind as a result of it. What is the value of continuing it? I see harm in its continuance.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Honesty does not require discontinuance
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Johann]
#158735
11/26/13 02:25 PM
11/26/13 02:25 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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APL has through this whole discussion emphasized a heavenly dimension of God and His Son Jesus Christ incomprehensible by the unconverted eye.
No wonder the discussion and confusion continues.
Last edited by Johann; 11/26/13 02:27 PM. Reason: spelling
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158738
11/26/13 04:00 PM
11/26/13 04:00 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.
A: I also have repeatedly said, that the people did execute their enemies, and with God's instructions. Please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants. PS - You wrote, "Never said Moses had unbelief." Why, then, did Jesus command Moses to kill? 1) "Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." 2) The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158739
11/26/13 04:11 PM
11/26/13 04:11 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: As you can read, there are things that will happen during the final judgment that clearly did not happen when Jesus drank the cup of trembling on the cross. In fact, there are startling dissimilarities. When Jesus paid our sin debt of death the earth was not enveloped in flames and molten lava. Nor did He writhe in flames tailored to punish. Even though He bore the sins of the world, Jesus died in six hours. Not so with sinners. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." The most notable difference, however, is the fact Jesus was alive when He triumphantly cried out, "It is finished." He conquered the cup, the second death and lived to rise on the third day.
A: Hey - I can continue to play the game. Read GC page 36. Tag - your it. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." (GC 36) Please explain how GC 36 addresses the distinct differences between Jesus' experience (beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha) and the experience of the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire (see GC 672, 673). I ask because you cited Jesus' experience and suggested it reflects how Jesus will punish the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158746
11/26/13 04:53 PM
11/26/13 04:53 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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James - - Did Christ die the second death? Yes. Was Christ executed by God? No. There is your answer. When God asked Abraham to offer up Isaac, who would have been the one to cut Isaac's throat? Abraham was the one who would have killed Isaac. By the Father "offering" His only begotten Son, He totally takes resposibillity for the death of His Son. Also, You make it sound as if second death is just being cut off from God. Is Satan cut off from God now? Is he currently suffering second death? Satan hates the Father, and since he was cast out of heaven he has been completely cut off from the Father without a shred of hope for reconcilliation, is he suffering second death because of this? No way! The wicked do not care that they are cut off from God until the truth is revealed. It does not hurt the wicked to be cut off until they realize they are going to die eternally. That is when they start to sweat blood. You have asked "what is second death"? I will ask this. Are the wicked suffering second death at the second resurrection? They are emboldened to form ranks to try to overthrow the city gates and kill God so they can eat the tree of life. Are they suffering the second death while cut off from the Father durring that attempt? The Holy Spirit is not with them, and the Father and Jesus are definetely not behind their attempt, so where is their suffering from being "cut off"? It's not until God reveals the truth to every heart that they confess and turn on Satan. They don't care that God is not in their heart, they could care less. They only begin to suffer the second death when they realize they cannot reach the tree of life eternally. That is how the wicked will suffer second death. Jesus suffered second death while carrying the sins of the world, and it effected Him because He is devoted to His Father, it hurt Him to be cut off. It does not effect the wicked that they are cut off until they realize that it means they will be destroyed, then it matters to their selfishness. Jesus was willing to be cut off from His Father for us, the wicked are shown they do not care about God and they are only concerned about themselves. There is a division here. I believe the seocnd death experience that Jesus had was witnessing the actual future event. Jesus walked in our shoes at the moment we would have seen the wrath of God outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Jesus literally experienced what the wicked will experience when they realize they are lost. He experienced the curse for us. That is how He suffered the second death for us. When He saw the wicked outside the New Jerusalem covered in blood it was the most painful thing He could ever witness, and to do so as if He was receiving the pain of the sins we committed for all of us at the same time. This is a very good thing to study. The garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience, is to be carefully studied and compared with the garden of Gethsemane where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him. Listen to the prayer of the only begotten Son of God, “Oh, my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” And the second time He prayed saying, “Oh my Father if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.” And the third time He prayed saying the same words. It was here the mysterious cup trembled in the hands of the Son of God. Shall He wipe the bloody sweat from His agonized countenance and let man go? The wail, wretchedness, and ruin of a lost world rolls up its horrible picture before Him. “And being in an agony He prayed more earnestly; and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” “And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.” The conflict is ended, Jesus consents to honor His Father by doing His will and bearing His curse, the consequence of man’s transgression. He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {6MR 336.3} This is the death that Jesus suffered before He died physically.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158747
11/26/13 05:07 PM
11/26/13 05:07 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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The penalty that Jesus suffered for us was two fold.
"Angels beheld the Saviour’s agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {CSA 33.7} The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close.... {CSA 33.8} Christ’s agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him. The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury. He came forth calm and serene. A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face. He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.... {CSA 33.9}
So in this text it says Jesus had suffered death for every man in Gethsemane before He physically died on the cross.
He suffered the literal penalty that each man would have had to receive. He suffered the curse. THEN He died on the cross.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158748
11/26/13 05:14 PM
11/26/13 05:14 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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APL, how did Uzzah die? Did God just cut off His presence from him?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158749
11/26/13 05:40 PM
11/26/13 05:40 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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James - Gethsemane and the cross are linked. Christ was suffering the separation in Gethsemane, but who was watching? No human one on earth! Christ did not die in Gethsemane. He remained very much alive. The final separation occurred on the cross.
NOTE in {DA 694} (don't know why you don't quote the original source but prefer an abreviated work) it says, "Christ's agony did not cease, but His depression left Him". And then, The conflict is ended, Jesus consents to honor His Father by doing His will and bearing His curse, the consequence of man’s transgression. He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {6MR 336.3}
Jsot asks, Is Satan cut off from God now? No. If Satan were completely cut off, He would die. This in integral the the issues in the great controversy. Read Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 1 - why was sin permitted. Only one person in the entire universe has experienced that. Christ. God's strange act is when He allows sinners to have their choice.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#158750
11/26/13 06:07 PM
11/26/13 06:07 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL, how did Uzzah die? Did God just cut off His presence from him? Uzzah died of presumption. God did not prevent the death that Uzzah's transgression brought.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158761
11/27/13 01:30 AM
11/27/13 01:30 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL,
1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin? 2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death? 3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels? 4. How does sin kill sinners? 5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness? 6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?
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