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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158839
11/29/13 02:47 AM
11/29/13 02:47 AM
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APL, I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions one-by-one.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158844
11/29/13 06:11 AM
11/29/13 06:11 AM
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OP
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APL, I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions one-by-one. What do you not understand in what I said?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158859
11/29/13 04:42 PM
11/29/13 04:42 PM
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A: I think Moses understood God quite well.
M: I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions one-by-one.
A: What do you not understand in what I said? I have reread what you have posted in response to my many questions and was unable to find a direct answer to my questions. You answer my questions with questions of your own (assuming, apparently, my answers to your questions reflect your answers to my questions). Unfortunately, though, your strategy isn't working for me. I apologize. Which is also why I keep pleading with you to provide plain, concise answers to my questions. I truly do want to learn what you believe. I am not here to debate or find fault or to change your mind. I know what I believe, but I don't know what you believe, which is why I am asking. Your unwillingness or inability to answer my questions directly, plainly, concisely is disappointing. You often cite divorce as proof Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants because of the unbelief of the Jews (not because Moses was guilty of unbelief or ignorant of Jesus' ideal plan). You believe this insight sufficiently answers my questions. You are laboring to help me understand there is no real difference between permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war. Anything that does not conform to Jesus' ideal plan, whether it be divorce or death, is equally abhorrent to God. In one of your responses to my current list of questions you wrote, "I think Moses understood God quite well." I agree. Ellen White wrote, "Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." Accordingly, Moses waged war and defeated his enemies with the edge of the sword. It was clear to him "divine strength is to be combined with human effort." Moses fully believed Jesus wanted him to wag war. Nowhere in inspiration does it say Moses thought or believed otherwise.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158863
11/29/13 06:21 PM
11/29/13 06:21 PM
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OP
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"Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." Being active does not necessarily mean swinging the sword. At no time was Israel supposed to fight. They fought because of unbelief. When the children of Israel were to cross the Jordan, they had to march. They marched in faith too I might add. And not until the feet of the priests touched the water did the waters part. Israel had to be do their part, they could not be inactive.
The divine record is plain as to how God would drive out the Canaanites. And the people were not to fight. Did the people fight when they left Egypt? Nope. Did Jacob fight either Laban or Esau? Nope. God would have done the same for the people if they would have trusted in God.
Last edited by APL; 11/29/13 06:25 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158867
11/30/13 03:02 AM
11/30/13 03:02 AM
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APL, is it safe to say you are not going to answer my questions?
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158891
11/30/13 03:39 PM
11/30/13 03:39 PM
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APL's view does not match that of the Bible. Judges
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
1:3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.
1:5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.
1:6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
1:7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered [their meat] under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.
1:8 Now the children of Judah had fought against Jerusalem, and had taken it, and smitten it with the edge of the sword, and set the city on fire.
1:9 And afterward the children of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites, that dwelt in the mountain, and in the south, and in the valley.
1:10 And Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron: (now the name of Hebron before [was] Kirjatharba:) and they slew Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai.
1:11 And from thence he went against the inhabitants of Debir: and the name of Debir before [was] Kirjathsepher:
1:12 And Caleb said, He that smiteth Kirjathsepher, and taketh it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter to wife.
1:13 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, took it: and he gave him Achsah his daughter to wife.
1:14 And it came to pass, when she came [to him], that she moved him to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off [her] ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou?
1:15 And she said unto him, Give me a blessing: for thou hast given me a south land; give me also springs of water. And Caleb gave her the upper springs and the nether springs.
1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which [lieth] in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
1:18 Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; ... We see in the above that God directed them to go and to fight, and blessed them, staying with them, as they conquered the Canaanites with the edge of the sword. "And the LORD was with Judah" says it all, for if they were acting apart from God's will, He could not have been with them. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158894
11/30/13 04:24 PM
11/30/13 04:24 PM
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GC, I agree Jesus commanded the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. He blessed them with success - often in miraculous ways. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus never intended to employ the Jews to drive out the Canaanites.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#158895
11/30/13 04:35 PM
11/30/13 04:35 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
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APL's view does not match that of the Bible. Judges
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
1:3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.
1:5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.
1:6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
1:7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered [their meat] under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.
1:8 Now the children of Judah had fought against Jerusalem, and had taken it, and smitten it with the edge of the sword, and set the city on fire.
1:9 And afterward the children of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites, that dwelt in the mountain, and in the south, and in the valley.
1:10 And Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron: (now the name of Hebron before [was] Kirjatharba:) and they slew Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai.
1:11 And from thence he went against the inhabitants of Debir: and the name of Debir before [was] Kirjathsepher:
1:12 And Caleb said, He that smiteth Kirjathsepher, and taketh it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter to wife.
1:13 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, took it: and he gave him Achsah his daughter to wife.
1:14 And it came to pass, when she came [to him], that she moved him to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off [her] ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou?
1:15 And she said unto him, Give me a blessing: for thou hast given me a south land; give me also springs of water. And Caleb gave her the upper springs and the nether springs.
1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which [lieth] in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
1:18 Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; ... We see in the above that God directed them to go and to fight, and blessed them, staying with them, as they conquered the Canaanites with the edge of the sword. "And the LORD was with Judah" says it all, for if they were acting apart from God's will, He could not have been with them. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Green - I've quoted the following already several times. Why do you ignore it? As you see, what you have just said of me is wrong. You are making a false witness. I don't expect an apology. "But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: APL]
#158905
11/30/13 09:53 PM
11/30/13 09:53 PM
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SDA
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APL, you are withholding information. You have been unwilling or unable to answer questions plainly, directly. I have no idea what you believe in relation to the questions you have refused to answer. Instead of answering my questions you pose questions of your own. Assuming my answers to your questions answers my questions assumes the absurd. As it stands, GC's assessment of your view seems reasonable. Perhaps if you were more forthcoming an accurate assessment of your view might be possible.
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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158913
12/01/13 02:27 AM
12/01/13 02:27 AM
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OP
SDA
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Western, USA
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APL, you are withholding information. You have been unwilling or unable to answer questions plainly, directly. I have no idea what you believe in relation to the questions you have refused to answer. Instead of answering my questions you pose questions of your own. Assuming my answers to your questions answers my questions assumes the absurd. As it stands, GC's assessment of your view seems reasonable. Perhaps if you were more forthcoming an accurate assessment of your view might be possible. I have been quite forthright on my views of violence. You clearly are not willing to understand them can certainly not accept them, even when shown SOP, APL (adventist pioneer library) articles, and the Bible. Your preconceived idea that God desires, wants, and performs violence is the correct view. I used to think that way, but the preponderance of evidence is that God is not like that. Yes, the wicked will die. But not by execution. You have asked questions which do not have an simple answer. But if we can't get agreement on the simple, how can we move forward?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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