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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15870
11/07/05 04:40 AM
11/07/05 04:40 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
And so we disagree again, my friend.
You're disagreeing with yourself, because you're the one who said it is at the moment of conversion that the burdened soul cries out, "Oh wretched man that I am ..." And you were right -- it is when one is unconverted that one thus cries out. And so it is shown, by your own words, that Paul in Romans 7 is unconverted.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15871
11/07/05 02:38 PM
11/07/05 02:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I disagree with your conclusion of my view. I believe Jesus felt the same way about His sinful flesh situation. That is, He, too, longed for the day when it would be replaced by sinless flesh nature.

The focus of the phrase is "deliver". Paul was looking forward to the day when Jesus will deliver him from a nature that continually bombards him with unholy suggestions.

Only a converted person can long for the day Jesus will replace sinful flesh with sinless flesh.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15872
11/08/05 12:16 AM
11/08/05 12:16 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
The focus of the phrase is "deliver".
It is a sentence and not a phrase.

You have to dump everything else that was said; take out the word "deliver" and construct a new sentence to get what you wish to say.

The message of the Gospel is "eternal life" as it is in Jesus. The body will be changed as par of the course to suit the life. It does not make the life nor grant or deny it freedom.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15873
11/08/05 02:20 PM
11/08/05 02:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, the whole tenure, the main idea Paul is addressing in Romans 7:14-25 is the origin of internally generated temptations - "the sin that dwelleth in me ... that is, in my flesh".

So long as life shall last we will have to trust Jesus to empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated to our new man mind by our fallen flesh nature.

We cannot completely evade being tempted. We can, and must, by the grace of God, resist acting out the unholy suggestions that enter our mind. But more than this, we can, and must, by the grace of God, reproduce the lovely character traits of Jesus. Do you agree?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15874
11/11/05 02:34 AM
11/11/05 02:34 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
John, the whole tenure, the main idea Paul is addressing in Romans 7:14-25 is the origin of internally generated temptations - "the sin that dwelleth in me ... that is, in my flesh".
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The whole, and the main idea of what Paul is talking about has to do with being “carnal” or “spiritual”. He then goes on to describe how that the carnal (religious) person, minds the flesh and hence cannot do the spiritual, because there is nothing spiritual in the flesh, but sin has taken possession of it.

quote:
So long as life shall last we will have to trust Jesus to empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated to our new man mind by our fallen flesh nature.
Forever, by the ‘faith of Christ’, we need to establish that God is the source of our “life”. To keep our spirit open only to him and by breaking faith with the flesh or the old man we sever its ability to influence us; close the door to the flesh or sin, and open the door to Christ to enter in and become the master of the temple.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Psa 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
quote:
We cannot completely evade being tempted.
You cannot control the “birds” that fly by your window

quote:
We can, and must, by the grace of God, resist acting out the unholy suggestions that enter our mind.
but you certainly can control whether they come in the house, and you can control whether you sit at the window and watch them.

quote:
But more than this, we can, and must, by the grace of God, reproduce the lovely character traits of Jesus. Do you agree?
But rather, this is accomplished when we let the spirit of life of Christ set us free from the law of sin (heeding the flesh).

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The spiritually minded are they which bear the fruit of the spirit. It is not a copy, or imitation, or reproduction. It is the genuine outworking of what God works in by his spirit in our spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Do you agree?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15875
11/12/05 03:28 AM
11/12/05 03:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
We disagree on the correct interpretation and application of Romans 7:14-25, but we agree on how to resist the unholy thoughts and feelings that originate within and without. However, we disagree as to the use of the words "reproduce" and "imitate" in relation to developing Christlike traits of character.

The following quotes reflect what I mean when I use the words imitate and reproduce. I realize you disagree with how I use them, but do you agree with the way she uses them?

COL 67
Christ is seeking to reproduce Himself in the hearts of men; and He does this through those who believe in Him. The object of the Christian life is fruit bearing--the reproduction of Christ's character in the believer, that it may be reproduced in others. {COL 67.1}

1SM 346
Through belief in Satan's misrepresentation of God, man's character and destiny were changed, but if men will believe in the Word of God, they will be transformed in mind and character, and fitted for eternal life. To believe that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16), will change the heart, and reproduce in man the image of God. {1SM 346.1}

4T 227
In order to be happy, we must strive to attain to that character which Christ exhibited. One marked peculiarity of Christ was His self-denial and benevolence. He came not to seek His own. He went about doing good, and this was His meat and drink. We may, by following the example of the Saviour, be in holy communion with Him, and by daily seeking to imitate His character and follow His example, we shall be a blessing to the world and shall secure for ourselves contentment here and an eternal reward hereafter. {4T 227.1}

2T 549
Ministers especially should know the character and works of Christ, that they may imitate Him; for the character and works of a true Christian are like His. He laid aside His glory, His dominion, His riches, and sought after those who were perishing in sin. He humbled Himself to our necessities, that He might exalt us to heaven. Sacrifice, self-denial, and disinterested benevolence characterized His life. He is our pattern. Have you, Brother A, imitated the Pattern? I answer: No. He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. Love for souls for whom Christ died will lead to a denial of self and a willingness to make any sacrifice in order to be co-workers with Christ in the salvation of souls. {2T 549.1}

TMK 265
Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. When we fall, all helpless, suffering in consequence of our realization of the sinfulness of sin; when we humble ourselves before God, afflicting our souls by true repentance and contrition; when we offer our fervent prayers to God in the name of Christ; we shall as surely be received by the Father as we sincerely make a complete surrender of our all to God. We should realize in our inmost soul that all our efforts in and of ourselves will be utterly worthless, for it is only in the name and strength of the Conqueror that we shall be overcomers. {TMK 265.2}

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15876
11/11/05 05:44 PM
11/11/05 05:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, you claim that you are in disagreement with John regarding imitating Christ and reproducing His character. John quoted Scripture, and you quoted the Spirit of Prophecy. You offered no commentary whatsoever, but merely asserted that you and John disagreed.

The way your post was given gives the impression that you think the sections of the Spirit of Prophecy you quoted do not agree with the Scriptures John quoted. That surely can't be your thinking. So what exactly is it that you disagree with? What was your point in quoting the Spirit of Prophecy texts?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15877
11/11/05 08:09 PM
11/11/05 08:09 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
we disagree as to the use of the words "reproduce" and "imitate" in relation to developing Christlike traits of character.
It appears that you disagree with me that it is the genuine outworking of what God works in by his spirit in our spirit, and that the spiritually minded are they which bear the genuine fruit of the spirit.

It seems that the word genuine does in effect have a contradictory meaning to your connotation of a copy, or imitation, or reproduction.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15878
11/11/05 09:01 PM
11/11/05 09:01 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
It also presents itself that your concept of imitate allows for the flesh to have much impact in the way of temptation and continued sinning; hence your interpretation of Romans 7 which gives continued power to the flesh.

quote:
We disagree on the correct interpretation and application of Romans 7:14-25, but we agree on how to resist the unholy thoughts and feelings that originate within and without.
How do we agree on victorious living?

You continually speak of resisting sin and unholy thoughts, which would simply say that the old man is alive and well in order to be able to tempt; only taken a religious (pharisaical) garb, because:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

I continually speak of “looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith”. This makes an end of the old life by breaking faith with it, and establishes the life of Christ in us. Therefore temptation has no foothold because:
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15879
11/12/05 02:46 PM
11/12/05 02:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, Jesus was harassed and tempted every step He took. From this I gather that it is not a sin to be tempted, or an evidence of sin if we have to resist temptation. Maybe I don't understand your passing bird analogy? Are you saying we live in a world full of sin, but in Christ we cannot be tempted to sin?

Also, do you agree with Sister White's use of the words copy, imitate, and reproduce? I know you don't agree with my use of them, but do you agree with her's?

And, do you agree with the following insight?

AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

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