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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15890
11/17/05 03:44 AM
11/17/05 03:44 AM
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OP
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Rosangela, I believe the following quotes apply to Jesus’ human nature, His human state and condition.
AH 127
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. {AH 127.2}
AH 330, 331
The mind is debased, and it is impossible to elevate it from corruption while it is being educated to enslave the moral and intellectual powers and bring them in subjection to grosser passions. Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained; and we must be aided by the refining influence of the grace of God, which will attract the mind upward and habituate it to meditate upon pure and holy things. {AH 330.2}
I believe the carnal mind and the lusts or desires of the flesh are synonymous aspects of our human make up. That is, they refer to the same thing. As such, Jesus possessed the same carnal mind of sinful flesh that we do. I understand this to mean that Jesus had to resist the same unholy thoughts and feelings produced by the carnal mind of His fallen flesh nature that we must resist.
Do you see how I make a distinction between the mind of the new man and the carnal mind of sinful flesh nature?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15891
11/16/05 10:26 PM
11/16/05 10:26 PM
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I differ a little from MM in the meaning of terms, although not in the concepts relating to Christ's taking our fallen nature.
I see the following terms as not necessarily implying committing sin:
a)fallen nature
b)sinful nature
c)sinful flesh
We can say that Christ took our fallen nature, or our sinful nature, or our sinful flesh, without implying He sinned. I wouldn't say Christ "had" a sinful nature, however, as this could easily be misunderstood as implying committing sin. The Spirit of Prophecy, for example, says Christ took our sinful nature upon His own sinless nature.
The following terms to my mind imply having committed sin:
a)internal foes
b)carnal mind
I see these two as combining both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. The first list only involves inherited tendencies to evil. Christ accepted the results of our heredity, including the same inherited tendencies to evil that we inherit, be He never yielded to these temptations. He never committed any sin, so He did not have cultivated tendencies to sin by virture of having committed any sin, although He did have them by virture of having taking our sin upon Him. He was tempted as we are, including both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil (the latter being our cultivated tendencies, not His, because He never sinned).
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15892
11/17/05 02:54 AM
11/17/05 02:54 AM
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quote:
But, you can’t seem to see it because you so insistently believe that freedom from sin can only come through the flesh. quote:
John, I don't understand this assessment of what I believe? Please explain. Thank you.
The following are your statements MM: quote:
... but how to perform that which is good I find not. This will continue to be true until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one. The law of sin and death resides within us, within our sinful flesh nature, and, as such, it remains to tempt us until Jesus returns.
Hence your belief that freedom from the law of sin lies in a “sinless body”, and not in the spirit.
As previously stated I do not hold that freedom from the law of sin and death can come through any kind of body.
The Law of sin and death does not reside in the flesh, but in the spirit of fallen man, and as such must be and is overcome now by the Law of the spirit of life. The law of sin and death is ‘the modus operandi’ of the spirit of fallen man; in simple words, the subjection of the spirit to the flesh. Thus the flesh rules the spirit.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15893
11/18/05 03:31 AM
11/18/05 03:31 AM
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Okay, John, thank you for clarifying your point. I guess we disagree as to origin of internal foes, the promptings of sin. I believe the law of sin and death is related to our sinful flesh nature, and you seem to be saying it is related to our sinful old man mind.
I believe our sinful old man man dies and is buried when we are born again. We are, at that point, dead to sin, free from sin. However, our sinful flesh nature remains to tempt us with unholy thoughts and feelings until the day Jesus returns.
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The "body of sin" is "destroyed" by resisting the temptations it generates. We cannot, obviously, literally destroy our body when we are born agian. But we can, and must, by the indwelling grace of God, recognize and resist the "motions of sin", the "deeds of the flesh", the "sin" that dwell in us, "that is, in our flesh" unto the honor and glory of God.
Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The "old man" is our former "conversation" or lifestyle. It is the result or byproduct of acting out our "deceitful lusts", that is, the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature. When we are born again our old man dies and is replaced with the mind of the new man.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15894
11/17/05 07:21 PM
11/17/05 07:21 PM
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quote:
Okay, John, thank you for clarifying your point. I guess we disagree as to origin of internal foes, the promptings of sin. I believe the law of sin and death is related to our sinful flesh nature, and you seem to be saying it is related to our sinful old man mind.
I didn't get this at all from what John wrote. You seem to be wanting to designate the focus of the problem to some physical source, and that's exactly what John is arguing against, as I read his writing.
John is saying, if I'm understanding him correctly, that the principle of the law of sin and death has to do with the spirit, not the flesh. Or to use your language instead of his, it has to do with the higher powers of the mind. Not the old man of sin mind (whatever that is), but the higher powers of our mind, after being converted.
Here's how the Spirit of Prophecy puts it:
quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
I think this paragraph is a good description of the point John has been making. What is describee here was lacking in Paul's life as he described it in Romans 7. However, Romans 8 it is present, and we see an entirely different description.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15895
11/18/05 02:35 AM
11/18/05 02:35 AM
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That's right Tom. I like that quote too. quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15896
11/19/05 03:10 AM
11/19/05 03:10 AM
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Let me get this straight. It's not the carnal mind of our sinful flesh nature that tempts us from within, but rather our old man spirit (mind), which, when we are born again, dies and can no longer tempt us. Does that sound right?
If so, what, then, is the origin of our internally generated temptations? Or, do they cease after we are born again and we are no longer tempted from within?
In Romans 7, what is the source and origin of the "sin" that dwells with in us, that is, in our flesh? Does it remain to tempt and torment us after we are born again? If not, what happen to it?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15897
11/21/05 12:16 AM
11/21/05 12:16 AM
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quote:
I believe the law of sin and death is related to our sinful flesh nature, and you seem to be saying it is related to our sinful old man mind.
You might be catching on to what is being said, depending on your meaning of sinful old man mind.
The Law of sin and death does not reside in the flesh, but in the spirit of fallen man. The law of sin and death is not the flesh. The law of sin and death is a law; the order of things; ‘the modus operandi’ of the spirit of fallen man; the law of the way things function when the spirit is subject to the flesh. Thus the flesh rules the spirit. This position programs the mind with carnal values, purposes, improper response to the flesh, and develops ‘habit paths’ in the flesh.
quote:
If so, what, then, is the origin of our internally generated temptations? Or, do they cease after we are born again and we are no longer tempted from within?
Romans 7 is not dealing with temptations, but with bondage and freedom from sin, and the ability to do good. Romans 7 begins by likening our bondage to sin to the law of marriage. Then it goes on to present that through death (spiritual) we can be set free from the husband of sin and be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
quote:
In Romans 7, what is the source and origin of the "sin" that dwells with in us, that is, in our flesh?
The "sin" that dwells with in us, is not in the flesh, it is in my members. The flesh is servant to the law of sin in the members. (answered above)
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
quote:
Does it remain to tempt and torment us after we are born again? If not, what happen to it?
The Law of sin and death ceases to exist in our members through death and resurrection (spiritual). Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15898
11/21/05 03:48 AM
11/21/05 03:48 AM
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OP
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Tell me if I have it right:
The law of sin and death reigns within us when our flesh rules our spirit. The result is sinful habits. When we are born again our spirit rules our flesh, and the result is sinless habits. The law of sin and death ceases to reign within us. The law of life in Jesus begins. Our internal foes cease harassing us, our internal promptings to sin cease to occur, our flesh ceases to tempt us.
Did I get it right?
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