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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #158952
12/03/13 07:01 AM
12/03/13 07:01 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Mike,

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
... He who could take up the Son of God, who was made a little lower than the angels, and place Him upon a pinnacle of the temple, and take Him up into an exceeding high mountain to present before Him the kingdoms of the world, can exercise his power upon the human family, who are far inferior in strength and wisdom to the Son of God, even after He had taken upon Himself man's nature. {1T 298.2}


Jesus' act of becoming one of us was not so that He could understand us. He already did. He knows everything. It was so that we could understand that He could understand us. We are too dense to realize how He could understand except as He came to be such an example to us as He did. Nevertheless, He was far superior to us, even in His humanity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Green Cochoa] #158958
12/03/13 06:43 PM
12/03/13 06:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen, GC. Jesus was and will always to be superior. Thank you for keeping this truth front and center. Does this also mean He did not have to resist the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature in the same way born-again believers must?

Quote:
If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {DA 117.2}

He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

As you can testify, being tempted from within is a sore and trying conflict. It would be a huge, huge advantage not to have to resist the clamorings of sinful flesh nature. However, Jesus "assumed human nature with . . . its temptations." His sinful flesh nature tempted Him from within in the same way it tempts us from within.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #158964
12/04/13 06:26 PM
12/04/13 06:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}

Did Jesus have this difficulty as we all do?

I say No, because He didn't have an unsanctified heart.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: asygo] #158978
12/05/13 01:51 AM
12/05/13 01:51 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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And I say, No, too. Jesus came to demonstrate what it takes for a born-again believer to resist sin, self, and Satan, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. He did not come to show what it takes for unconverted or partially converted sinners to fail and fall short of the glory of God. Having "an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God" does not describe born-again believers who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature.

Overcoming as Jesus overcame means recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan. It also means recognizing and refusing to act out (in thought, word, or deed) our defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. It means minding and mastering ourselves. "Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man." {DA 466.5} "It gives to man the mastery of himself, bringing every impulse and passion of the lower nature under the control of the higher powers of the mind." {COL 114.2}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159015
12/06/13 07:11 AM
12/06/13 07:11 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
He did not come to show what it takes for unconverted or partially converted sinners to fail and fall short of the glory of God. Having "an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God" does not describe born-again believers who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature.

But that would exclude Him from the "real difficulty" of the human experience. We sin because our hearts are unsanctified and we refuse to submit to God. That's the crux of our sinful tendencies. And Jesus did not share in that wretched experience.

I wonder where APL stands.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: asygo] #159034
12/06/13 03:27 PM
12/06/13 03:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, there is a vast difference between converted and unconverted people. Converted people are born again with a new nature, a new heart, a new mind, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, new affections, new appetites. All selfishness is expelled. All things have become new. While they are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man they cannot satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. They are dead to sin, free from sinning, awake to righteousness, resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh nature, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. This is the state and status Jesus demonstrated while here in sinful flesh.

Quote:
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

This ingrafting in Christ separates us from the world. No longer will we love the society of the vile and contaminated and contaminating. We will be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then rich clusters of fruit are borne. The graces of the Spirit are borne in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness. We have new affections, new appetites, new tastes. Old things have passed away, and lo, all things have become new. {TSB 135.2} {6BC 1101.1}

To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "And we have the mind of Christ." Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character. {RH, August 19, 1890 par. 7}

If we represent the character of Christ, every particle of selfishness must be expelled from the soul. {AH 370.1}

Selfishness must be expelled from the soul. The heart must be purified from all envy, all evil surmising. Believers must constantly receive and impart the love of God. Then unbelievers will say of them, "They have been with Jesus, and learned of Him. They are living in intimate companionship with Christ, who is love." {MM 46.1}

"We need to feel the vivifying influence of the Holy Spirit as the disciples felt it on the day of Pentecost. . . . Selfishness was expelled from the heart. {RC 241.7}

This is our great need today in every church in our land. For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22, 23). "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). {YRP 289.3}

The only safeguard against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. It is because selfishness exists in our hearts that temptation has power over us. But when we behold the great love of God, selfishness appears to us in its hideous and repulsive character, and we desire to have it expelled from the soul. As the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, our hearts are softened and subdued, the temptation loses its power, and the grace of Christ transforms the character. {MB 118.3}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159046
12/07/13 03:33 AM
12/07/13 03:33 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, there is a vast difference between converted and unconverted people.

I certainly agree with that.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
All selfishness is expelled

selfishness appears to us in its hideous and repulsive character

temptation loses its power

So are you saying that for Jesus, all selfishness was expelled, selfishness was hideous and repulsive to Him, and temptation had no power over Him? Is that how it was for Jesus?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #159049
12/07/13 03:43 AM
12/07/13 03:43 AM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
"When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan." That was the nature of fallen Adam. Are you saying this was the nature Jesus had? He had an evil nature, in harmony with Satan?

We would do well to heed Jones' warning, "Don't go too far. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh; not in the likeness of sinful mind. Do not drag his mind into it."
You have quoted Jones and Waggoner well. You have quoted the same concept that I have that Rosangela has said is not true. EGW was fully aware of what Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, Haskell and others were teaching. The Baker letter is not a rebuke of their teaching. Never did EGW rebuke this teaching. In fact, it is our only hope.

Knowing that EGW said fallen Adam had an evil nature, are you saying that Jones, Waggoner, and EGW all taught that Jesus had such a nature? And that Christ's having an evil nature in harmony with Satan "is our only hope"?

EGW also said that "His nature recoiled from evil." {SC 93.4} That would be hard to reconcile with the "His nature was in harmony with Satan" idea.

When the sinner has a view of the matchless charms of Jesus, sin no longer looks attractive to him... {FW 107.1} Yet people say their only hope is to believe that Christ's nature was in harmony with Satan, as fallen Adam's was. That's not exactly what I imagine Christ's "matchless charms" to be.

Last edited by asygo; 12/07/13 04:42 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: asygo] #159050
12/07/13 03:43 AM
12/07/13 03:43 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, you left out the best parts of the passages posted above. Like born-again believers (who are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man) Jesus was incarnated with a new nature, a new heart, a new mind, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, new affections, new appetites. He also resisted the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh nature.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159058
12/07/13 03:10 PM
12/07/13 03:10 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Right. You are saying that Jesus was all new.

So are you saying that for Jesus, all selfishness was expelled, selfishness was hideous and repulsive to Him, and temptation had no power over Him? Is that how it was for Jesus?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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