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Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158985
12/05/13 02:00 PM
12/05/13 02:00 PM
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kland  Offline
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I mean, what happens when you send a billion watts straight up into the sky? What happens to that energy in the ionosphere which is raised up (or out) comes crashing back down? Could it give off the energy to whatever is in its way whether it be clouds, storm systems, or tectonic plates?

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: kland] #158988
12/05/13 03:12 PM
12/05/13 03:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, I'm surprised you are downplaying the importance between the two different dispensations. I am also surprised you are misquoting the following passages:

Quote:
God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Jesus commanded them to conquer the Promised Land. They refused to obey. Jesus reprimanded them.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158989
12/05/13 04:14 PM
12/05/13 04:14 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, I'm surprised you are downplaying the importance between the two different dispensations. I am also surprised you are misquoting the following passages:

Quote:
God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Jesus commanded them to conquer the Promised Land. They refused to obey. Jesus reprimanded them.
The people were required to move forward. Your quote does not say fight, does it? Nope. They were required to move. Why were the people required to spend 40 years in the wilderness? Unbelief. When they did go over the Jordan, they were required to move forward. They crossed the Jordan at peak flow. There was no evidence that God was going to open the Jordan. Not until the feet of the priests touched the river! God had provided so much evidence to the people when they first left Egypt. Yet the people when they left still had unbelief. Did they need to fight leaving Egypt? Nope. Why do so many have unbelief today?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #158996
12/06/13 01:01 AM
12/06/13 01:01 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
The utter destruction of the people of Jericho was but a fulfillment of the commands previously given through Moses concerning the inhabitants of Canaan: "Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them." Deuteronomy 7:2. "Of the cities of these people, . . . thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Deuteronomy 20:16. To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. God was about to establish Israel in Canaan, to develop among them a nation and government that should be a manifestation of His kingdom upon the earth. They were not only to be inheritors of the true religion, but to disseminate its principles throughout the world. The Canaanites had abandoned themselves to the foulest and most debasing heathenism, and it was necessary that the land should be cleared of what would so surely prevent the fulfillment of God's gracious purposes. {PP 492.1}

"To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness." These words apply to any view that insists Jesus has never punished evil-doers.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #158999
12/06/13 01:29 AM
12/06/13 01:29 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
The utter destruction of the people of Jericho was but a fulfillment of the commands previously given through Moses concerning the inhabitants of Canaan: "Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them." Deuteronomy 7:2. "Of the cities of these people, . . . thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Deuteronomy 20:16. To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. God was about to establish Israel in Canaan, to develop among them a nation and government that should be a manifestation of His kingdom upon the earth. They were not only to be inheritors of the true religion, but to disseminate its principles throughout the world. The Canaanites had abandoned themselves to the foulest and most debasing heathenism, and it was necessary that the land should be cleared of what would so surely prevent the fulfillment of God's gracious purposes. {PP 492.1}

"To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness." These words apply to any view that insists Jesus has never punished evil-doers.

"Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them."

Those words are too clear to be misunderstood. The God I believe in would never command that His people be first possessed of evil spirits in order to carry out His will. So it cannot be, here, that God is commanding evil spirits to act. Nay, but when they followed His commands, they were blessed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #159000
12/06/13 01:36 AM
12/06/13 01:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen, GC. Too plain, indeed, to be misconstrued or forced to mean something other than it clearly means:

Quote:
In the directions first given to Moses concerning their passage through Edom, after declaring that the Edomites should be afraid of Israel, the Lord had forbidden His people to make use of this advantage against them. Because the power of God was engaged for Israel, and the fears of the Edomites would make them an easy prey, the Hebrews were not therefore to prey upon them. The command given them was, "Take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore: meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given Mount Seir unto Esau for a possession." Deuteronomy 2:4, 5. The Edomites were descendants of Abraham and Isaac, and for the sake of these His servants, God had shown favor to the children of Esau. He had given them Mount Seir for a possession, and they were not to be disturbed unless by their sins they should place themselves beyond the reach of His mercy. The Hebrews were to dispossess and utterly destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, who had filled up the measure of their iniquity but the Edomites were still probationers, and as such were to be mercifully dealt with. God delights in mercy, and He manifests His compassion before He inflicts His judgments. He teaches Israel to spare the people of Edom, before requiring them to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan. {PP 423.2}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

The generation that succeeded Joshua were directed to carry forward the work which he had left unfinished; but they did not obey the divine command to utterly destroy the heathen. Some of the tribes made war on the Canaanites, but failing to receive the help which they should have had from their brethren, they became weary of the conflict, and spared their most dangerous enemies. Frequent intercourse soon removed all fear of danger; and now the Israelites took another step in transgression, by connecting themselves in marriage with the heathen. When this was done, the difficulties of the situation were greatly increased. It was no easy matter to make war with relatives, and to extirpate or banish their own kindred. {ST, June 2, 1881 par. 3}

The Lord commanded Saul to "utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed." The Lord knew that this wicked nation would, if it were possible, blot out his people and his worship from the earth; and for this reason he had commanded that even the little children should be cut off. But Saul had spared the king, the most wicked and merciless of them all; one who had hated and destroyed the people of God, and whose influence had been strongest to promote idolatry. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 11}

Jesus commanded His chosen people to "smite" and "utterly destroy" His enemies. Those who obeyed He blessed. And those who disobeyed He cursed and killed.

Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Mountain Man] #159005
12/06/13 03:58 AM
12/06/13 03:58 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus commanded His chosen people to "smite" and "utterly destroy" His enemies. Those who obeyed He blessed. And those who disobeyed He cursed and killed.
No question! BUT - was this plan A? Nope. Does this prove that this is how God handles all such situations? Nope. This was God's permissive will, not His ideal will. Just as God gave instructions on how to handle adultery via polygamy and divorce. God's permissive will, not His ideal will.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: APL] #159008
12/06/13 04:50 AM
12/06/13 04:50 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Mike,

There's no point trying to win an argument with someone who shifts positions every time he's cornered.

First, APL says the people were never supposed to fight.
Originally Posted By: APL
"Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." Being active does not necessarily mean swinging the sword. At no time was Israel supposed to fight. They fought because of unbelief. When the children of Israel were to cross the Jordan, they had to march. They marched in faith too I might add. And not until the feet of the priests touched the water did the waters part. Israel had to be do their part, they could not be inactive.

The divine record is plain as to how God would drive out the Canaanites. And the people were not to fight. Did the people fight when they left Egypt? Nope. Did Jacob fight either Laban or Esau? Nope. God would have done the same for the people if they would have trusted in God.


Then, he says the people were supposed to fight.
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus commanded His chosen people to "smite" and "utterly destroy" His enemies. Those who obeyed He blessed. And those who disobeyed He cursed and killed.
No question! BUT - was this plan A? Nope. Does this prove that this is how God handles all such situations? Nope. This was God's permissive will, not His ideal will. Just as God gave instructions on how to handle adultery via polygamy and divorce. God's permissive will, not His ideal will.


Which is it, APL?

More importantly, I have a very serious question for you:

If God asked you to do something that you believed was not His "Plan A," but rather His "Plan B," would you do it? If so, would you believe it was a sin for you to do it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Green Cochoa] #159012
12/06/13 05:38 AM
12/06/13 05:38 AM
APL  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Green - you really have not been engaged in this tread. Go back and read the tread. I have not changed my thoughts at all. It was never God's plan to have Israel fight. Did Israel fight? YES. Did God give them instructions about fighting? YES. Does this prove that Israel was supposed to fight? NO. Why did Israel fight? UNBELIEF and the HARDNESS of their HEARTS.

I have used the example of divorce and polygamy. Obviously you hvae not read it. Did God every want people to have plural marriages or to have divorce? NO. Did the people divorce and plural marriages? YES. Did God give instructions about plural marriage and divorce? YES. Does this prove that God wanted plural marriage and divorce? NO. Yes did God give such rules? UNBELIEF and the HARDNESS of their HEARTS. Open your eyes to the truth about God!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ? [Re: Green Cochoa] #159014
12/06/13 05:54 AM
12/06/13 05:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

If God asked you to do something that you believed was not His "Plan A," but rather His "Plan B," would you do it? If so, would you believe it was a sin for you to do it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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