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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159061
12/07/13 03:52 PM
12/07/13 03:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
"But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man." {16MR 182.2}

So
Sinful propensities = corrupt propensities
and
Christ did not possess these

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: asygo] #159064
12/07/13 04:01 PM
12/07/13 04:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, Jesus never sinned, therefore, He cultivated no selfishness that needed to be expelled. Jesus began at conception the way believers begin at conversion. Born-again believers are converted with all selfishness expelled. They are dead to sin, free from sin, and awake to righteousness. This state and status is true of them while they are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man. Their sinful flesh nature remains and continues to tempt them from within to indulge their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. But like Jesus they refuse to comply. Of course, like Jesus, they are free to sin. They did not become robots when they finished converting from the ways of the world to the ways of Jesus.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159066
12/07/13 04:11 PM
12/07/13 04:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Rosangela, did Jesus have an advantage not available to born-again believers who are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man? Would it be an advantage to possess a "sinful flesh," a fallen, sinful human nature whose tendencies, propensities, inclinations are in perfect harmony with the will of God? Would it be an advantage not to be constantly tempted from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159069
12/07/13 04:50 PM
12/07/13 04:50 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It would be a huge, huge advantage not to have to resist the clamorings of sinful flesh nature.

Was Jones correct in saying Jesus did not have a sinful mind? Do people have to resist sinful minds?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159070
12/07/13 07:13 PM
12/07/13 07:13 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Would it be an advantage to possess a "sinful flesh," a fallen, sinful human nature whose tendencies, propensities, inclinations are in perfect harmony with the will of God? Would it be an advantage not to be constantly tempted from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

No, I don't think this would be an advantage. The strength of a temptation doesn't depend on a single factor. Otherwise, the temptations of Jesus would be weaker than those of someone who has an addiction.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: asygo] #159072
12/07/13 09:58 PM
12/07/13 09:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: It would be a huge, huge advantage not to have to resist the clamorings of sinful flesh nature.

A: Was Jones correct in saying Jesus did not have a sinful mind? Do people have to resist sinful minds?

People who experience conversion in God's appointed way receive as a free gift new hearts, new minds, new motives, new wills.

Quote:
He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. {FLB 139.2}

To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. {AG 100.2}

The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." {1MCP 95.1}

What is the new heart? It is the new mind. What is the mind? It is the will. Where is your will? It is either on Satan's side or Christ's side. Now it is up to you. Will you put your will today on Christ's side of the question? That is the new heart. It is the new will, a new mind. "A new heart will I give thee." Then let us begin right here. {1SAT 210.1}

The heart, the mind, the will "is either on Satan's side or Christ's side." The passages posted above describe the state and status of the mind Jesus possessed while He was here in sinful flesh. His sinful flesh tempted Him from within to sin. But He refused.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Rosangela] #159073
12/07/13 10:10 PM
12/07/13 10:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Would it be an advantage to possess a "sinful flesh," a fallen, sinful human nature whose tendencies, propensities, inclinations are in perfect harmony with the will of God? Would it be an advantage not to be constantly tempted from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

R: No, I don't think this would be an advantage. The strength of a temptation doesn't depend on a single factor. Otherwise, the temptations of Jesus would be weaker than those of someone who has an addiction.

I'm surprised you believe having a fallen, sinful human nature whose tendencies, propensities, inclinations are in perfect harmony with the will of God is not an advantage. Adam and Eve most likely felt disadvantaged after they sinned and their nature became a hostile enemy tempting them from within to sin.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159074
12/07/13 11:09 PM
12/07/13 11:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
And I'm surprised you believe that the strength of a temptation is determined by sinful tendencies, and still believe that the temptations of Christ could be stronger than ours. Obviously the power of sinful tendencies is reinforced by repetition, which means that cultivated tendencies are stronger than merely inherited tendencies which were never acted out.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Rosangela] #159075
12/08/13 01:56 AM
12/08/13 01:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Excellent point, Rosangela. I agree cultivated traits and tendencies are more powerful than inherited traits and tendencies which have not been acted out in thought, word, and deed. And, as you pointed out, other factors effect the strength of various temptations - heredity, health, associations, environment, diet, etc. Most notably, though, is the fact God works to monitor and regulate the strength of a temptation based on His knowledge of our ability to withstand it. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Just like everyone else, Jesus inherited in sinful flesh nature all the fallen traits and tendencies known to man. Some were dominant and others were recessive. Unlike us, however, Jesus never added to their strength to tempt and annoy by sinning. Nevertheless, He was tempted in all points like we are. The strength of each temptation was not determined by lifestyle choices but by the degree to which God permitted. In this way, Jesus was tempted in every way it is possible for mankind to be tempted.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159080
12/08/13 12:43 PM
12/08/13 12:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
So the point is that the temptations posed by Satan (external) may be stronger than the temptations posed by inward corruptions (internal) - it all depends on the extent to which God permits someone to be tempted.
As to the "points" in which Jesus was to be tempted, they were the three areas on which we are tempted:

He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. Satan was on his track at every step, and in the wilderness he assailed him with the three leading temptations with which man is overcome,--appetite, presumption, and ambition. {RH, July 5, 1892 par. 10}

Therefore, Jesus didn't need to have sinful tendencies in order to be tempted in all points like we are, and EGW confirms that, in fact, He didn't have sinful tendencies.

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