Forums118
Topics9,217
Posts195,975
Members1,324
|
Most Online5,850 Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159160
12/11/13 03:43 PM
12/11/13 03:43 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159163
12/11/13 04:24 PM
12/11/13 04:24 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above. At Jericho, holy angels crashed the walls and the Hebrews killed everyone inside with the edge of the sword. Every time Israel encountered enemy soldiers Jesus commanded them to kill them with the edge of the sword. Sometimes holy angels assisted the Jews by killing enemy soldiers themselves. The night was spent in lamentation, but with the morning came a hope. They resolved to redeem their cowardice. [1]When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. [2]They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}
[3]God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, [4]but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. [5]They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; [6]"we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. [7]So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. [8]The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." [9]It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3} NOW - FOLLOW THE FLOW 1) God had bidden them to go up and take the land - but they refused 2) THEY determined to seize the land - after they had refused 3) God had appointed a time for them to enter the land. 4) By their wilful refusal, the permission to enter was withdrawn. 5) They distrusted God (unbelief) the power of God to work with them in gaining possession of the land 6) The people said, "we will go up and fight". 7) They were terribly blinded by their transgression! 8) The LORD, NEVER commanded them to "go up and fight". He said, go up and take the land, not fight! 9) Is was NOT His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare. Things never got much better, and in fact the people went backwards not forwards. Jeremiah 7:17-3417 See you not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? said the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, my anger and my fury shall be poured out on this place, on man, and on beast, and on the trees of the field, and on the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. 21 Thus said the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 22 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you. 24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt to this day I have even sent to you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:26 Yet they listened not to me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27 Therefore you shall speak all these words to them; but they will not listen to you: you shall also call to them; but they will not answer you. 28 But you shall say to them, This is a nation that obeys not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receives correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. 29 Cut off your hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath. 30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, said the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. 31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. 32 Therefore, behold, the days come, said the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. 33 And the carcasses of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. 34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159165
12/11/13 07:21 PM
12/11/13 07:21 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above.
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159166
12/11/13 07:22 PM
12/11/13 07:22 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159167
12/11/13 08:55 PM
12/11/13 08:55 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above. Strongs 3423 has more meaning that seize by force. And do the words of EGW mean less to you than Strong's? I'll take EGW comments over Strong. - Original: ירשׁ ירשׁ - Transliteration: Yarash - Phonetic: yaw-rash' - Definition: 1. to seize, dispossess, take possession off, inherit, disinherit, occupy, impoverish, be an heir a. (Qal) 1. to take possession of 2. to inherit 3. to impoverish, come to poverty, be poor b. (Niphal) to be dispossessed, be impoverished, come to poverty c. (Piel) to devour d. (Hiphil) 1. to cause to possess or inherit 2. to cause others to possess or inherit 3. to impoverish 4. to dispossess 5. to destroy, bring to ruin, disinherit - Origin: a primitive root - TWOT entry: 920 - Part(s) of speech: Verb - Strong's: A primitive root; to occupy (be driving out previous tenants and possessing in their place); by implication to seize to rob to inherit; also to expel to impoverish to ruin: - cast out consume destroy disinherit dispossess drive (-ing) out enjoy expel X without fail (give to leave for) inherit (-ance -or) + magistrate be (make) poor come to poverty (give to make to) possess get (have) in (take) possession seize upon succeed X utterly. Total KJV Occurrences: 231 • consume, 1 Deu_28:42 • destroy, 1 Exo_15:9 • disinherit, 1 Num_14:12 • dispossess, 2 Num_33:53; Deu_7:17 • dispossessed, 2 Num_32:39; Jdg_11:23 • drive, 1 Jos_23:5 • drove, 1 Jos_15:14 • enjoy, 2 Num_36:8; Jos_1:15 • expelled, 2 Jos_13:13; Jdg_1:20 • have, 1 Jdg_14:15 • heir, 9 Gen_15:3; Gen_15:4(2); Gen_21:10; 2Sa_14:7; Pro_30:23; Jer_49:1; Jer_49:2; Mic_1:15 • heirs, 1 Jer_49:2 • inherit, 20 Gen_15:7; Gen_15:8; Gen_28:4; Lev_20:24; Lev_25:46; Deu_2:31; Deu_16:20; 2Ch_20:11; Psa_25:13; Psa_37:9; Psa_37:11; Psa_37:22; Psa_37:29; Psa_37:34; Isa_54:3; Isa_57:13; Isa_60:21; Isa_65:9; Jer_8:10; Jer_49:1 • inheritance, 1 Ezr_9:12 • inherited, 2 Psa_105:44; Eze_33:24 • inheritor, 1 Isa_65:9 • magistrate, 1 Jdg_18:7 • out, 49 Exo_34:24; Num_21:32; Num_32:21; Num_33:52; Num_33:55; Deu_4:38; Deu_9:3; Deu_9:4; Deu_9:5; Deu_11:23; Deu_18:12; Jos_3:10(2); Jos_13:6; Jos_13:12; Jos_14:12; Jos_15:63; Jos_16:10; Jos_17:12; Jos_17:13(2); Jos_17:18; Jos_23:9; Jos_23:13; Jdg_1:19(2); Jdg_1:21; Jdg_1:27; Jdg_1:28(2); Jdg_1:29; Jdg_1:30; Jdg_1:31; Jdg_1:32; Jdg_1:33; Jdg_2:21; Jdg_2:23; Jdg_11:24; 1Ki_14:24; 1Ki_21:26; 2Ki_16:3; 2Ki_17:8; 2Ki_21:2; 2Ch_20:7; 2Ch_28:3; 2Ch_33:2; Job_20:15; Psa_44:2; Zec_9:4 • poor, 2 1Sa_2:7; Pro_30:9 • possess, 95 Gen_22:17; Gen_24:60; Lev_20:24; Num_13:30; Num_14:24; Num_27:11; Num_33:53; Deu_1:8; Deu_1:21; Deu_1:39; Deu_2:24; Deu_2:31; Deu_3:18; Deu_3:20; Deu_4:1; Deu_4:5; Deu_4:14; Deu_4:22; Deu_4:26; Deu_5:31; Deu_5:33; Deu_6:1; Deu_6:18; Deu_7:1; Deu_8:1; Deu_9:1; Deu_9:4; Deu_9:5; Deu_9:6; Deu_9:23; Deu_10:11; Deu_11:8(2); Deu_11:10; Deu_11:11; Deu_11:23; Deu_11:29; Deu_11:31(2); Deu_12:1; Deu_12:2; Deu_12:29; Deu_15:4; Deu_17:14; Deu_18:14; Deu_19:2; Deu_19:14; Deu_21:1; Deu_23:20; Deu_25:19; Deu_28:21; Deu_28:63; Deu_30:5; Deu_30:16; Deu_30:18; Deu_31:3; Deu_31:13; Deu_32:47; Deu_33:23; Jos_1:11(2); Jos_18:3; Jos_23:5; Jos_24:4; Jos_24:8; Jdg_2:6; Jdg_11:23; Jdg_11:24(3); Jdg_18:9; 1Ki_21:18; 1Ch_28:8; Ezr_9:11; Neh_9:15; Neh_9:23; Job_13:26; Isa_14:21; Isa_34:11; Isa_34:17; Isa_61:7; Jer_30:3; Eze_7:24; Eze_33:25; Eze_33:26; Eze_35:10; Eze_36:12; Hos_9:6; Amo_2:10; Amo_9:12; Oba_1:17; Oba_1:19(2); Oba_1:20; Hab_1:6 • possessed, 19 Num_21:24; Num_21:35; Deu_3:12; Deu_4:47; Deu_30:5; Jos_1:15; Jos_12:1; Jos_13:1; Jos_19:47; Jos_21:43; Jdg_3:13; Jdg_11:21; Jdg_11:22; 2Ki_17:24; Neh_9:22; Neh_9:24; Neh_9:25; Isa_63:18; Jer_32:23 • possessest, 1 Deu_26:1 • possesseth, 1 Num_36:8 • possession, 5 1Ki_21:15; 1Ki_21:16; 1Ki_21:19; Psa_44:3; Psa_69:35 • poverty, 3 Gen_45:11; Pro_20:13; Pro_23:21 • succeeded, 3 Deu_2:12; Deu_2:21; Deu_2:22 • succeedest, 2 Deu_12:29; Deu_19:1 • take, 1 Psa_83:12 • upon, 1 Jos_8:7 """
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159168
12/11/13 09:06 PM
12/11/13 09:06 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages. Did I not answer your question - plainly?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159169
12/11/13 09:14 PM
12/11/13 09:14 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
APL, please address 159093 and 95.
PS - Regarding 159094 please remember you agree Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to kill criminals and combatants. And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159172
12/12/13 03:04 PM
12/12/13 03:04 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423: #3423 yaw-rash', yaw-raysh' A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly. "Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere: Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year. How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it. Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you: How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree. Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them. Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree? Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423]. Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?
|
|
|
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159173
12/12/13 03:24 PM
12/12/13 03:24 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:
1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)
2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)
Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
M: APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
A: BOTH.
M: APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
A: Did I not answer your question - plainly? GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673. The fire described in GC 672, 673 and EW 294 are without a doubt literal. You claim the fire therein portrayed is both literal and symbolic.
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|