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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: Rosangela]
#159085
12/08/13 03:40 PM
12/08/13 03:40 PM
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Another great observation, Rosangela. However, it is not a sin to be tempted. No one is contaminated or corrupted or incurs guilt because they are tempted. They must sin to incur guilt, corruption, and contamination. If the tendencies, inclinations, propensities of Jesus' sinful, fallen flesh nature were in harmony with God's will, Satan, by virtue of this fact, would have been unable to tempt Jesus in all points like born-again believers are tempted. Why? Because sinful flesh nature is the channel through which Satan tempts us. The following passage makes this point clearly: In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. Christ knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and by his false insinuations to ensnare all whose trust is not in God. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. It is not His will that we should be placed at a disadvantage in the conflict with Satan. He would not have us intimidated and discouraged by the assaults of the serpent. "Be of good cheer," He says; "I have overcome the world." John 16:33. {DA 122.3} Jesus passed over the same ground because He possessed the same sinful flesh nature. He inherited our same hereditary weaknesses. His fallen flesh nature clamored just like our fallen flesh nature clamors - that is, it tempted Him from within in the same way it tempts us from within. Also note she says it is "a disadvantage" to possess a sinful flesh nature that clamors against us.
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159089
12/08/13 04:01 PM
12/08/13 04:01 PM
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"Coming as He did, as a man, to meet and be subjected to, with all the evil tendencies to which man is heir, working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith, He made it possible for Himself to be buffeted by human agencies inspired by Satan." {Letter K-303, 1903}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: APL]
#159096
12/08/13 07:23 PM
12/08/13 07:23 PM
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APL, please post a link to the passage you posted above. Thank you.
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: APL]
#159104
12/09/13 04:16 AM
12/09/13 04:16 AM
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"Coming as He did, as a man, to meet and be subjected to, with all the evil tendencies to which man is heir, working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith, He made it possible for Himself to be buffeted by human agencies inspired by Satan." {Letter K-303, 1903} That's a very long and convoluted grammar to say basically that He was tempted by other men who, with all their evil tendencies that they have inherited, and inspired by Satan, were working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith. There is no question that this is true, and we see Jesus even telling Peter "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159105
12/09/13 05:08 AM
12/09/13 05:08 AM
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"Coming as He did, as a man, to meet and be subjected to, with all the evil tendencies to which man is heir, working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith, He made it possible for Himself to be buffeted by human agencies inspired by Satan." {Letter K-303, 1903} That's a very long and convoluted grammar to say basically that He was tempted by other men who, with all their evil tendencies that they have inherited, and inspired by Satan, were working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith. There is no question that this is true, and we see Jesus even telling Peter "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Blessings, Green Cochoa. Did Jesus have perfect heredity as Green is claiming? Nope. The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God." Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour's sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5} Did Christ take on the seed [genetics] of Adam? No, He took on the seed of Abraham, Hebrews 2:14. Made of the seed of David after the flesh, Romans 1:3. If he had the untainted genes of Adam, would he have looked like everyone else when He came? In fact, He had no beauty that we should desire Him. He was despised and rejected of men. Isaiah 53:2-3. Could He be the messiah? He looked just like us! Adam was much taller! I just see the people of His day thinking, could He real be the messiah? It is an ordinary man. Christ carried our sickness, Matthew 8:17. What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3} For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. The great work of redemption could be carried out by the Redeemer only as He took the place of fallen man. Burdened with the sins of the world, He must pass over the path where Adam fell, and redeem his failure. When Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him, but he was surrounded by the glories of Eden. But it was not thus with Jesus; for, bearing the infirmities of degenerate humanity, He entered the wilderness to cope with the mighty foe, that He might lift man up from the lowest depths of his degradation. Alone He was to tread the path of temptation and exercise self-control stronger than hunger, ambition, or death. {BEcho, November 15, 1892 par. 1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: APL]
#159106
12/09/13 05:21 AM
12/09/13 05:21 AM
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Did Jesus have perfect heredity as Green is claiming? Nope What should I call this? A misrepresentation? an untruth? a falsehood? a deception? a lie? Answer me this: Where did Green Cochoa "claim" Jesus had a perfect heredity? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: APL]
#159107
12/09/13 05:39 AM
12/09/13 05:39 AM
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OP
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He took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. . . . Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.--Ms. 113, 1902, pp. 1, 2. So not only was Christ subject to our same infirmities, but the notion that Christ only took on the sins of the world in Gethsemane or the Cross is also not sustained.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: APL]
#159112
12/09/13 07:01 AM
12/09/13 07:01 AM
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So not only was Christ subject to our same infirmities, but the notion that Christ only took on the sins of the world in Gethsemane or the Cross is also not sustained. APL, It appears that you equate "infirmities" with "sins of the world." I do not, and therefore cannot accept your statement above as truth. If Christ's infirmities were sinful, He would have been a sinner. It is not a sin, however, to be tempted, as Mike so often has said here. The infirmities are not sinful either, nor are they equal to the "sins of the world" as you have reasoned. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159115
12/09/13 02:25 PM
12/09/13 02:25 PM
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OP
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If Christ's infirmities were sinful, He would have been a sinner. You math does not equate. You are saying that Christ really did not take our sins, otherwise, He would have been a sinner. If Christ really had our sins in His body, you would call Him a sinner. 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Healed of what? Sin. As EGW says as quoted above, "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin." What would make Him a sinner is if He yielded to the sin. He did not. You can not equate "fallen condition" as being without sin as you have.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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