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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #159369
12/19/13 12:24 AM
12/19/13 12:24 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
A fall happens when there is a willful sin - an act of rebellion. But a sinful act is always preceded by a selfish desire - which is also a sin. So Adam and Eve sinned before they fell. They sinned in thought before they sinned in action.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #159370
12/19/13 12:26 AM
12/19/13 12:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Adam and Eve did not sense their sinfulness until after they ate the forbidden fruit. They did not feel the ill effects of disobedience until after they ate the forbidden fruit.

Quote:
The tempter plucked the fruit and passed it to Eve. She took it in her hand. Now, said the tempter, you were prohibited from even touching it lest you die. He told her that she would realize no more sense of evil and death in eating than in touching or handling the fruit. Eve was emboldened because she felt not the immediate signs of God's displeasure. She thought the words of the tempter all wise and correct. She ate, and was delighted with the fruit. It seemed delicious to her taste, and she imagined that she realized in herself the wonderful effects of the fruit. {SR 34.2}

She then plucked for herself of the fruit and ate, and imagined she felt the quickening power of a new and elevated existence as the result of the exhilarating influence of the forbidden fruit. She was in a strange and unnatural excitement as she sought her husband with her hands filled with the forbidden fruit. She related to him the wise discourse of the serpent and wished to conduct him at once to the tree of knowledge. She told him she had eaten of the fruit, and instead of her feeling any sense of death, she realized a pleasing, exhilarating influence. As soon as Eve had disobeyed she became a powerful medium through which to occasion the fall of her husband. {SR 35.1}

Eve was before him, just as lovely and beautiful, and apparently as innocent, as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater, higher love for him than before her disobedience, as the effects of the fruit she had eaten. He saw in her no signs of death. She had told him of the happy influence of the fruit, of her ardent love for him, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it, and like Eve, felt not immediately its ill effects. {SR 36.2}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Rosangela] #159372
12/19/13 12:28 AM
12/19/13 12:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
A fall happens when there is a willful sin - an act of rebellion. But a sinful act is always preceded by a selfish desire - which is also a sin. So Adam and Eve sinned before they fell. They sinned in thought before they sinned in action.

You should be able to post an inspired passage which says, Adam and Eve sinned before they ate the forbidden fruit.

Do you think Jesus would have had to implement the plan of salvation if A&E stopped short of eating the forbidden fruit?

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159377
12/19/13 04:10 AM
12/19/13 04:10 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,701
Canada
I asked the question earlier?

The question concerning thoughts?

When do thoughts (temptations) which lead to sin actually become sin? When does a person "cross the line"?

Temptation isn't sin -- yet the sinful thought has entered the mind during a temptation. It won't be temptation if it didn't enter into our minds with its suggestions and appeal.

When does a person "cross the line"?

When do those thoughts stop being a temptation beckoning us to start sinning and when does the sinning start?






Originally Posted By: dedication
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust (lusting thoughts) , and enticed (tempted).
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived (lusting thoughts are accepted and implanted in the mind) , it brings forth sin (the person either acts on it or fantasizes on it): and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: dedication] #159379
12/19/13 05:02 AM
12/19/13 05:02 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
I asked the question earlier?

The question concerning thoughts?

When do thoughts (temptations) which lead to sin actually become sin? When does a person "cross the line"?

Temptation isn't sin -- yet the sinful thought has entered the mind during a temptation. It won't be temptation if it didn't enter into our minds with its suggestions and appeal.

When does a person "cross the line"?

When do those thoughts stop being a temptation beckoning us to start sinning and when does the sinning start?






Originally Posted By: dedication
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust (lusting thoughts) , and enticed (tempted).
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived (lusting thoughts are accepted and implanted in the mind) , it brings forth sin (the person either acts on it or fantasizes on it): and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.



AND - is there a different in a pre-fall brain and a post-fall brain?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #159382
12/19/13 06:43 AM
12/19/13 06:43 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Canada
Why do you divert into another field asking a different question and ignoring mine?

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159387
12/19/13 10:14 AM
12/19/13 10:14 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
You should be able to post an inspired passage which says, Adam and Eve sinned before they ate the forbidden fruit.

Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Eve coveted the thing God had forbidden. {CTr 22.4}

Quote:
Do you think Jesus would have had to implement the plan of salvation if A&E stopped short of eating the forbidden fruit?

No, because they wouldn't have fallen - they wouldn't have taken the decision to go directly against what God had said (i. e., they wouldn't have sinned willfully).

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: dedication] #159388
12/19/13 01:28 PM
12/19/13 01:28 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Why do you divert into another field asking a different question and ignoring mine?

It is not a diversion. Adam was pre-fall. His mind was not carnal. The Bible describes the post-fall mind. Example, Romans 8:6-7.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Rosangela] #159389
12/19/13 01:37 PM
12/19/13 01:37 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
You should be able to post an inspired passage which says, Adam and Eve sinned before they ate the forbidden fruit.

Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Eve coveted the thing God had forbidden. {CTr 22.4}

Quote:
Do you think Jesus would have had to implement the plan of salvation if A&E stopped short of eating the forbidden fruit?


No, because they wouldn't have fallen - they wouldn't have taken the decision to go directly against what God had said (i. e., they wouldn't have sinned willfully).


Huh? IF they had not eaten the fruit, they would not have sinned. The wages of SIN, is death, Romans 6:23. There is not differentiation between willful sin and not when concerning the wages that sin pays. Romans 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: APL] #159390
12/19/13 01:55 PM
12/19/13 01:55 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Then Lucifer was already condemned to die when Jesus gave him the opportunity to repent and be restored to his position, right APL?

Remember, his first sin was pride. This led to jealousy, then gossip. Jesus came and spoke to him, revealing to his mind the course he had embarked on. He came to understand that the confusing thoughts he'd been going through were wrong, and that he had been wrong. Jesus pleaded with him to return from his course. His pride prevented him from admitting his wrong. He then chose to fully rebel against God. This was his "fall." Had he returned, his sin would have been merely one of ignorance, and his death would not have been required.

The story lines up with Rosangela's position.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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