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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Daryl] #159376
12/19/13 04:05 AM
12/19/13 04:05 AM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Iceland
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Veith actually says that all we have are copies of copies.


Which is true. The miracle is that there that there are not greater differences than there are.

The who problem is so much like small kids who will say,

- My ball is better than your ball.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Johann] #159384
12/19/13 08:02 AM
12/19/13 08:02 AM
Johann  Offline
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My post should have said:

It is true that we only have copies of copies of the original Bible manuscripts.It is a miracle that there are not greater differences in those we have today.

Why do we fight so much about which are the best manuscripts? Isn't it like immature kids each claiming their particular ball is better than any other?

Where do we find a word of inspiration claiming one version of the Bible is the right one?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Johann] #159386
12/19/13 09:11 AM
12/19/13 09:11 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Johann,

We have Mrs. White claiming that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth. She has a few words about the lineage of their Bible. And we know which branch of the tree it belongs to--that of the Majority Text.

Yes, God preserves His Word. It is a miracle that over 90-95% of the manuscripts all agree. That's why they're called the "Majority Text." Unfortunately, some still choose to believe that the minority stragglers that come from questionable Catholic sources are somehow superior.

No Codex Vaticanus for me, thank you.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Green Cochoa] #159395
12/19/13 04:08 PM
12/19/13 04:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Johann,

We have Mrs. White claiming that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth.
Green, you've never been able to support that lie. It's becoming bolder and bolder. Prove me wrong. Show where Ellen White claimed "that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth". You mean it to be a version. You cannot support that!

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159397
12/19/13 04:16 PM
12/19/13 04:16 PM
K
kland  Offline
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I believe it was Veith who I had watched in the past. The topic had caught my interest as I wanted to know if the KJV was the only version we should read or not and why. It went on for over an hour and I kept expecting him to come to his point. But instead, he said nothing. Just like Rick and Green. They talk a lot, but there's no content. Veith showed where lots of scriptures were different, but never did say why one was correct other than the KJV "had more". More is not always better. Then when he pulls some similar stunts as Green does with Joshua, he loses any credibility he had left.

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159409
12/19/13 07:47 PM
12/19/13 07:47 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Johann,

We have Mrs. White claiming that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth.
Green, you've never been able to support that lie. It's becoming bolder and bolder. Prove me wrong. Show where Ellen White claimed "that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth". You mean it to be a version. You cannot support that!


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy, there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God's Word and his honor. {GC88 65.1}

...

Except among the Waldenses, the Word of God had for ages been locked up in languages known only to the learned; but the time had come for the Scriptures to be translated, and given to the people of different lands in their native tongue. The world had passed its midnight. The hours of darkness were wearing away, and in many lands appeared tokens of the coming dawn. {GC88 79.2}

...

Wycliffe's words were fulfilled. He lived to place in the hands of his countrymen the most powerful of all weapons against Rome; to give them the Bible, the Heaven-appointed agent to liberate, enlighten, and evangelize the people. There were many and great obstacles to surmount in the accomplishment of this work. Wycliffe was weighed down with infirmities, he knew that only a few years for labor remained for him, he saw the opposition which he must meet; but, encouraged by the promises of God's Word, he went forward nothing daunted. In the full vigor of his intellectual powers, rich in experience, he had been preserved and prepared by God's special providence for this, the greatest of his labors. While all Christendom was filled with tumult, the reformer, in his rectory at Lutterworth, unheeding the storm that raged without, applied himself to his chosen task. {GC88 88.1}
At last the work was completed,—the first English translation of the Bible ever made. The Word of God was opened to England. The reformer feared not now the prison or the stake. He had placed in the hands of the English people a light which should never be extinguished. In giving the Bible to his countrymen, he had done more to break the fetters of ignorance and vice, more to liberate and elevate his country, than was ever achieved by the most brilliant victories on fields of battle. {GC88 88.2}


kland, you are misunderstanding my position. I do NOT believe that the KJV is the only translation by which someone may be saved. I DO believe it comes from the best family of manuscripts, that of the majority text. The Waldensian Bibles also came from this text. NEITHER the KJV nor their Bibles came from the Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, or the Codex Alexandrinus. BOTH the KJV and the Waldensian Bibles have come from the Majority Text.

No, the Waldenses did not possess KJV Bibles. Yes, they did possess Bibles of the best source manuscripts--unadulterated. The Catholics have edited those other Codices. But the Waldenses had translations from the unedited texts, just like any of us can have if we use the KJV.

Mrs. White also lauds Wycliffe's Bible, the very first one in the English language. kland, what manuscripts did Wycliffe use--the Majority or Minority texts?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Green Cochoa] #159434
12/20/13 03:51 PM
12/20/13 03:51 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Green: "that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth".

Ellen White: "The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated,"

Green says the Bible, but Ellen White says "a translation".

Did anyone else have "a translation"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have "a translation"?

Did anyone else have a "manuscript in their native tongue"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have a "manuscript in their native tongue"?

Did the version, the translation, the manuscript give them "the truth unadulterated"? Or did having any translation, any manuscript in their native tongue which they could read rather than listen to what others told them to think give them "the truth unadulterated"?

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159436
12/20/13 08:33 PM
12/20/13 08:33 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
kland,

Are you trying to imply that if one did not have a "translation" then his or her truth was "adulterated?"

I'm not following that logic. "Adulterated" means more than something that has not been translated.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Green Cochoa] #159473
12/22/13 12:28 AM
12/22/13 12:28 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,706
Canada
Quote:
Mrs. White also lauds Wycliffe's Bible, the very first one in the English language. kland, what manuscripts did Wycliffe use--the Majority or Minority texts?


According to the book "A visual history of the King James Bible", no complete English Bible existed before the fourteenth century. (The Waldenses were not English so this isn't speaking of them)

Even the Latin Vulgate was scarce, the clergy in England usually only had copies of portions of the authorized Latin Bible. Greek and Hebrew were not yet being taught in England at this date, so Wycliffe did not know either language, but he believed a Bible in the people's language was needed.

So what did he do? He had access to a Latin Vulgate and with the help of others, like Nicholas of Hereford, produced a rather strictly, literal translation from the Latin into the English of his time in 1382.
They also included the extra books commonly known as apocryphal books.

Only 250 copies of the Wycliffe Bible exist today, and each one differs from the others.
Of course this was in an age before the printing press. The Lollards wrote out these English Bibles by hand. There was also revision done as the earlier copies were very literal translations of the Latin, while later ones flowed a little more in the English way of speaking.

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: dedication] #159474
12/22/13 01:01 AM
12/22/13 01:01 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,706
Canada
It was Tyndale, 150 years after Wycliffe, who used Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to translate the bible into English.

Tyndale was a contemporary of Luther, living in the reformation age, and had the advantage of the printing press. Tyndale was fluent in eight languages, including Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and is often referred to as the Father of the English Bible.

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